Middle Earth questions

[ColonelHardisson]

Joshua is pretty dead-on accurate with all his answers, as far as I can tell. A comment:

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Galadriel and Elrond certainly seemed capable of "magic" although, they didn't seem to understand the use of the word the same way the hobbits, for instance, did.

I think what Galadriel meant was that what the hobbits saw as magic (i.e. wondrous and arcane) was commonplace for the elves. That is, the elves lived in a high-magic world, while the hobbits lived in a low-magic world. The elves lived with so much magic that it was a natural, everyday thing for them.

Regarding Sauron's attacks elsewhere - I think western Middle Earth was the last place unconquered by Sauron, or at least the last place which hadn't effectively allied with him. Even in the Lord of the Rings we read that his armies come from the South (Harad) and the East. So he controlled large sections of those areas.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Was it ever determined if orcs were like elves in being ageless beings that lived for centuries?

 

[Geoffrey]

I'm not at home so I can't give you the exact reference (but I am 90% sure it's in book II of The Book of Lost Tales), but Tolkien's latest conception of balrogs was that there were, at most, 7 balrogs. Two were slain in Gondolin, some (an unspecified number) were slain at the end of the First Age, and one was slain by Gandalf.

 

[A2Z]

From The Encyclopedia of Arda:

"Sauron was one of the mightiest (perhaps the mightiest) of the Maiar, and in the beginning of days he served Aulë the Smith. From Aulë he learnt much of forging and making, knowledge that he would make use of many thousands of years later when he built the Barad-dûr and forged the One Ring.

In the earliest days, Melkor seduced Sauron and took him into his own service, and Sauron became the greatest and most trusted of his followers. While Utumno still stood in the dark north of the world, Sauron was given command of his lesser fortress of Angband. At length, the Valar assaulted Melkor and took him in chains back to Valinor, but Sauron escaped, and remained in Middle-earth.

Lots of good stuff at that site.

 

[Storminator]

Hey! Balrogs have no wings!

Whodathunkit?

PS

 

[Desdichado]

I think ColonelHardisson is right, but I also think that Galadriel et al. saw a big, substantive and probably mechanical difference between her arts and the arts of the enemy; thus the distinction and confusion for her in the use of the hobbits' word magic.

As for the orcs/elves relationship, it appears from a number of notes and essays Tolkien wrote that he was completely going to dump the entire concept anyway, and make orcs be primarily descended from Men. Even if the orcs were going to be of ultimately elvish origin, they never had the long life of elves. That much is apparent from earlier essays that said specifically that they were of shorter lifespan than the Numenoreans.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think ColonelHardisson is right, but I also think that Galadriel et al. saw a big, substantive and probably mechanical difference between her arts and the arts of the enemy; thus the distinction and confusion for her in the use of the hobbits' word magic.

Yes, I believe I see what you mean. In other words, the hobbits used the term "magic" to cover what the elves did, the wizards did, and what Sauron did. Elves would most likely see all three types of power as different. It would be kind of like someone using the term "electricity" to refer to electricity, internal combustion engines, and animal power. Or something like that.

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, something like that. Galadriel very obviously saw a distinction between, at least, her art and "the deceits of the Enemy" from what she said to Sam. I think, from what I've read in some essays in The History of Middle-earth that what Galadriel did was an extention of herself and her own power, whereas what some folks, such as Queen Beruthiel, perhaps, or the Mouth of Sauron, was harness the dispersed power of Melkor. Maybe this was why she saw them as two very different things.

I think there was also a big difference between the purpose of the art: magical creation, such as the making of the Silmarils was very different than Melkor exerting his power to control other's minds. That also goes back to Tolkien's general philosophy that the practice of "evil" magic ended up dispersing your power and making you weaker overall.

 

[Agback]

1) Who or What was Suaron ( Spelling? )

2) At anytime in ME history, could have anyone challenged Suaron's power?

3) Whats the diffrence between the elves in the Golden wood and Lothlorian? ( Spelling on that one again? )

4) What is a balrog, Where do they come from and how many are there?

5) What makes a wizard? How many were there?

(1) Sauron was a maia of the people of Aulë, perhaps the most powerful of the Maiar. He joined the rebellion of Melkor (a.k.a. Morgoth) and was Morgoth's chief lieutenant until the War of Wrath.

The problem with this answer is that if you had read 'The Silmarillion' you would have known it, but as you haven't read the Silmarillion you don't know what it means. I will attempt a rough translation:

"Sauron was an angel of the group assisting Aulë (the archangel in charge of stone and craft). He was perhaps the most powerful angel apart from the archangels (although perhaps Ossë or Eonwë would give him a run for his money). He joined a rebellion against God led by Melkor (Morgoth), and was his chief deputy until the fourteen archangels loyal to God sent an army of elves led by angels to destroy the rebellion."

(2) At any time in ME history, any of the fourteen Valar ("archangels") could have trashed Sauron. The maia ("angel") Ëonwë, leader of the hosts of Valinor, could have thrashed him in combat but probably not matched him in other ways. The same is probably true of a few other maiar and perhaps even of some of the stompier elves living in Valinor or Mandos ("Purgatory"). The Host of Valinor could have wiped him and his forces off the face of the Earth. But the battle between Sauon and a Vala or Sauron and a group of maiar, or perhaps even between Sauron and the Vanyar ("fair elves") and Noldor ("knowing elves") led by Ingwë and Fingolfin, would have caused untold destruction and killed tens of thousands of bystanders, and would not have solved the problem of evil. Which is why the Vala (or perhaps Illuvatar ("God")) sent Frodo, Aragorn, and Faramir (at least, they tried to send Faramir, but Boromir pr-empted his mission.

Also, at one particular time in ME history, Sauron was defeated by the army of the men of Numenor and taken prisoner by their king, Ar-Phazaron. But he soon corrupted the king and most of the Numenoreans, and Illuvatar ("God") destroyed Numenor.

At another time, he was challenged by the Last Alliance of Men and Elves, defeated, and killed by Gil-galad, Elendil, Cirdan, and Elrond ganging up on him.

(3) 'Lorien', 'Lothlorien', 'Laurelindorenan', and 'The Golden Wood' are different names for the same place.

(4) A balrog is a fallen maia ("angel"), one of the ones that joined the Rebellion of Melkor. There were originally at least hundreds or thousands, but most were destroyed by the Host of Valinor (consisting of elves led by maiar) in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age.

(5) A wizard (ista) is a maia on a special mission, sent by Manwë (chief of the Valar and vala of the air and weather) to oppose Sauron in Middle-earth. The istari were incarnated in real bodies, and were forbidden or prevented from using most of their angelic powers or from opposing Sauron by force. To quote from JRR Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales" 'Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those who came to the north of Middle-earth, where there was most hope... the chiefs were five." The five were Curumo (Saruman), Aiwendil (Radagst), Olorin (Gandalf), and Alatar and Pallando (the 'Blue Wizards'). Curumo was of the people of Aulë (vala of stone and craft), Radagast of the people of Yavanna (vala of plants and forests, and Aulë's wife), and Olorin of the people of Irmo (vala of visions, dreams, rest, and spiritual healing) but the delegate of Manwë (chief of the Valar and vala of the air and weather) and Varda (queen of the Valier and vala of the sky, stars, and the elves). Alatar was of the people of Oromë (the vala who hunts monsters and fell beasts). Pallando was of the people perhaps of Oromë, but perhaps rather of Namo (vala of Fate and guardian of the Dead) and/or his sister Nienna (vala of pity, mourning, and history).

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

Immortal orcs

Was it ever determined if orcs were like elves in being ageless beings that lived for centuries?

That is the obvious consequence of what Tolkien originally wrote about orcs. And there are hints in the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag that they may be at least seven thousand years old.

But Tolkien was rather unhappy with the idea that orcs were ugly elves, and immortal, and even with the thought that they were children of Iluvatar (his heroes ought to have had pity for them if they were). So in his later notes there are traces of lots of attempts to find an alternative history and nature of orcs that would please his aesthetic and justify the racism of his heroes. But I understand that he never came up with one that could be worked into his history and cosmology.

Regards,


Agback