Midnight-Is it worth it?

[StalkingBlue]

Believe me....I run pretty far from a 4 battle a day type game Midnight isn't really the setting for that. But I look at the channeler's capabilities and see someone that's effective for a very short time. A fighter stays effective all day long.

...

I disagree.

As a spellcaster your best tactical option isn't always to lob the highest-level spells you have access to - nor in fact necessarily to cast attack spells at all. With some tactical thinking and teamwork, you may be much more efficacious overall by opening up tactical options for the party as a whole.
The 13th level wizard in S'mon's DnD game (that I play in) doesn't live by casting all his 7th level spells as soon as he sees an opponent. He uses varied tactics, often holds back saving spells just in case, brings in all sorts of lower-level spells when useful, and I'd say he's highly effective. I don't think he ever runs out of spells, not even close.

That's my general experience with spellcasters in DnD (saving 4-combats-per-day stints which I never seem to get to play in): they never seem run out of spells - not even close.

At the other extreme end of the range, I've played in rule systems where spellcasters regain spell energy not overnight (as channelers do) but over the course of days and days, similar to the rate of natural hp healing in DnD 3.5. That seriously interferes with a spellcaster's efficacy over the course of an adventure drawn out over several encounters and days. You hold back and hold back in the hope of finally meeting a challenge worthy of expending your precious spell energy, and you may still find yourself out of spells at the worst of times, ie when the party finally meets the main challenge of the adventure. That's a mechanic I find frustrating to no end because it takes your spellcasting capabilities out of the equation for most of what goes on.

As a channeler on the other hand, you completely recover overnight, at least much of the time. (Not if you're too busy running away from something, of course. )

There's also ways of saving spell energy, what with talismans and stuff.

Further, as S'mon and Derulbaskul point out, the 3/4 BAB progression, d6 HD and skill points provide you with further options to contribute to the party's efforts even at times when spellcasting is not a good, safe or even available option.

With all your spellcasting expertise, you still make a viable backup warrior / utility characer. And finally with the way spellcasting abilities work for non-channelers in Midnight, you have a real option of multiclassing if you wish. You'll be somewhat more limited in your spell choices and your spell energy will be a bit lower than for a pure channeler, but you're still viable as a mage.


I look forward to seeing the channeler in my game progress. I suspect that he'll be far from weak or limited in efficacy at higher levels.

Of course, all that is theoretical for now. Maybe we should all meet again here in a few months' time.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

You know, looking at the Unearthed Arcana thread, I'm seeing a LOT of options that would fit really well into Midnight.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Heck, I'm seeing a lot that will fit into Aedon... Some of them have already been there for some time, in fact (V&W, Reputation, Defense Rolls, etc.).

That book is sooo mine. (A book of "official variants"... Gotta love it!)

 

[Banshee16]

You know, looking at the Unearthed Arcana thread, I'm seeing a LOT of options that would fit really well into Midnight.

I agree....I'm thinking of using the Wound/Vitality points, the Class AC Defense Bonus, and the armor as damage absorption, instead of raising the AC.

I think they'd all help improve a Birthright game.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I disagree.

As a spellcaster your best tactical option isn't always to lob the highest-level spells you have access to - nor in fact necessarily to cast attack spells at all. With some tactical thinking and teamwork, you may be much more efficacious overall by opening up tactical options for the party as a whole.
The 13th level wizard in S'mon's DnD game (that I play in) doesn't live by casting all his 7th level spells as soon as he sees an opponent. He uses varied tactics, often holds back saving spells just in case, brings in all sorts of lower-level spells when useful, and I'd say he's highly effective. I don't think he ever runs out of spells, not even close.

That's my general experience with spellcasters in DnD (saving 4-combats-per-day stints which I never seem to get to play in): they never seem run out of spells - not even close.

At the other extreme end of the range, I've played in rule systems where spellcasters regain spell energy not overnight (as channelers do) but over the course of days and days, similar to the rate of natural hp healing in DnD 3.5. That seriously interferes with a spellcaster's efficacy over the course of an adventure drawn out over several encounters and days. You hold back and hold back in the hope of finally meeting a challenge worthy of expending your precious spell energy, and you may still find yourself out of spells at the worst of times, ie when the party finally meets the main challenge of the adventure. That's a mechanic I find frustrating to no end because it takes your spellcasting capabilities out of the equation for most of what goes on.

As a channeler on the other hand, you completely recover overnight, at least much of the time. (Not if you're too busy running away from something, of course. )

There's also ways of saving spell energy, what with talismans and stuff.

Further, as S'mon and Derulbaskul point out, the 3/4 BAB progression, d6 HD and skill points provide you with further options to contribute to the party's efforts even at times when spellcasting is not a good, safe or even available option.

With all your spellcasting expertise, you still make a viable backup warrior / utility characer. And finally with the way spellcasting abilities work for non-channelers in Midnight, you have a real option of multiclassing if you wish. You'll be somewhat more limited in your spell choices and your spell energy will be a bit lower than for a pure channeler, but you're still viable as a mage.


I look forward to seeing the channeler in my game progress. I suspect that he'll be far from weak or limited in efficacy at higher levels.

Of course, all that is theoretical for now. Maybe we should all meet again here in a few months' time.

Maybe it's because I myself haven't had any high level spellcasters in 3E yet. As a DM, the highest level NPC I've created was a lvl 12 wizard, and the PCs fought him to a draw (average party lvl 10). I found that the PCs kept passing their saves, and as a result, his magic wasn't too effective.

The highest level sorcerer I've run was lvl 5.....so I've learned to make good use out of the lower level spells, but still find them of limited effectiveness. But I do find the PCs using up a fair number of their spells......much is used just for utilitarian purposes....in Planescape, you need all kinds of spells like portal beacons, portal detection etc. So a lot of the magic gets used just finding your way around. Have one or two battles in the day, and you use a lot of the rest.

I have reservations about the Channeler, thinking he/she should get more spellpoints, but I *love* the flavour.

Banshee

 

[S'mon]

That's my general experience with spellcasters in DnD (saving 4-combats-per-day stints which I never seem to get to play in): they never seem run out of spells - not even close.

There was a 4-encounters-type dungeon crawl IMC the Sunday before last - the Hall of the Frost Giant Jarl. I don't remember any of the spellcasters running out of spells as such - certainly the 11th level spellcasters had plenty slots left when they both died; Leo the 13th-level Wizard had used both his Passwalls but he had plenty of other spells remaining when he fled.

 

[StalkingBlue]

There was a 4-encounters-type dungeon crawl IMC the Sunday before last - the Hall of the Frost Giant Jarl. I don't remember any of the spellcasters running out of spells as such - certainly the 11th level spellcasters had plenty slots left when they both died; Leo the 13th-level Wizard had used both his Passwalls but he had plenty of other spells remaining when he fled.

You're right actually, my apologies for overlooking that one. Technically speaking it was indeed that type of adventure - though my excuse is that it didn't feel that way because thanks to your GMing and also partly I guess due to our tactics, things were moving fluidly and dynamically. It felt more like a single ongoing encounter really and (except for the winter wolves and the poor chained-down hydra perhaps) not much like a dungeon crawl at all.

Still, to drag the thread back on topic (sort of), if for some reason one were to drop this same frost giant hall into Midnight, I still don't see a 13th level or so channeler sitting down crying silently because he'd run out of useful things to do moments after entering the entrance hall. They'd have to be more sparing with spells than our three mages were - but then there were a few of us around who were actually able to swing a sword, or wield a Spear, as the case might be. As it happened, the warrior types hardly saw any action as long as the mages were dropping fire spells in front of our lines. Which confirms your point, and mine, I think.

 

[Nightfall]

You know, looking at the Unearthed Arcana thread, I'm seeing a LOT of options that would fit really well into Midnight.

So can I get a Bloodline?

 

[Derulbaskul]

You know, looking at the Unearthed Arcana thread, I'm seeing a LOT of options that would fit really well into Midnight.

... and I'm thinking the same thing about the Conan game.

 

[Phebius]

Everyone that I've seen post about them talks about Channelers being good. But they are running characters at low levels...like level 2 or 3. What I'm interested in hearing is how well the Channeler compares when all the characters in the party are level 12?

Banshee

Don't worry. If you play the game right, there's no way in hell a channeler will ever reach anywhere near 12th level