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Mighty Crossbows?
- Thread starter RithTheAwakener
- Start date
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Crossbow is also the best weapon for Fighters and possibly Rangers. Classes with the feats to spare. It would be outstanding for Zen Archer Monks, who really are one of the least feat starved classes I've ever seen, if not for their flurry of blows' iditoic restriction limiting them specifically to bows (especially dumb when their starting wealth isn't even enough to afford a bow).
Again, with enough feats, you're doing everything you can with a bow, but d10 base damage (add gravity bow buff spell and that jumps to 2d8), a better critical range that's just begging for some of those high level critical feats, the ability to shoot prone, the ability to focus almost solely on a single stat (not only are you not relying on str for damage, you're not even penalized for it being negative!), etc...
Crossbow is not nearly as subpar as everyone is saying. But far be it for me to continue disrupting the echo chamber...
Again, with enough feats, you're doing everything you can with a bow, but d10 base damage (add gravity bow buff spell and that jumps to 2d8), a better critical range that's just begging for some of those high level critical feats, the ability to shoot prone, the ability to focus almost solely on a single stat (not only are you not relying on str for damage, you're not even penalized for it being negative!), etc...
Crossbow is not nearly as subpar as everyone is saying. But far be it for me to continue disrupting the echo chamber...
tylermalan
First Post
Lol, again, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying if you don't have the (extra) feats to support them... plus, a lot of the things that you mention as making them better than bows are situational. I've never fired from prone (or wanted to). I've never dual wielded crossbows (or wanted to). I almost never have a strength penalty. Etc. I think the vast majority of characters/players would say the same things (with the possible exception of the str penalty).
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Dropping prone is a free action and is invaluable in a shootout.
Steel_Wind
Legend
This isn't a bad idea in terms of gameplay, but in terms of the underlying technology, "mighty crossbows" are vastly more sophisticated than any composite longbow and were developed more than a few millennia after those simple devices were first created.
The difference is not in the recurve of the bows. Woods, horn and sinews were used to make them and their construction techniques were VERY similar. The drawstring on the crossbow was ultimately very different, but that is not critical on its own, either. (Though ultimately, braided wire is extremely sophisticated metallurgy.)
The BIG difference is in the trigger mechanism. One had one; the other did not. "Mighty crossbow" trigger mechanisms were the most sophisticated examples of engineering in the entire Medieval and early Renaissance world.
If you are wondering how the interplay of these crossbows "might" impact upon your gameworld, keep this in mind in terms of how our "real world" experience developed:
When it came to crossbows, the REAL high-technology involved went beyond the pull-weight of the bow. What was necessary to make it all work were increasingly sophisticated fine metallurgy skills and techniques that could make a small clasp which was strong enough to grasp and hold the drawn string and yet be able to release it smoothly. The stronger the draw weight, the more sophisticated the trigger had to be.
This was not a small point and was, in fact, THE high-tech of the early to mid-renaissance. There was a constant interplay between the metallurgists who were good enough to make these crossbow triggers and the armourers who tried to defeat them. While gunpowder ultimately overtook this process between crossbows and armour and made that competition moot, the technology in crossbows triggers had IMMEDIATE application and migrated to other weapon and non-weapon uses.
Because the trigger mechanisms were very similar, the metallurgists who worked on crossbows were the same artisans who developed all sophisticated triggers for Renaissance musketry. More importantly, as they mastered all of these skills, they became highly proficient in using small springs and tiny gears -- and that knowledge DIRECTLY lead to the manufacture of clocks and watches.
There is a REASON that "Swiss Watches" became the gold standard through modern Europe. The artisans who became Swiss Clock makers were the same artisans who developed the triggers for "mighty crossbows". Those weapon makers ultimately moved to Switzerland (and some to Bavaria) to escape taxation and being pressed into service by various and sundry of the nobility of France and northern Italy. Most of those soon to be "Swiss Clock Makers" spent most of their time supplying the Italian city states and their mercenary armies with increasingly stronger crossbows.
Because that same technology then permitted the creation of accurate time pieces, that in turn had a profound effect on the Enlightenment and permitted accurate time to be recorded and used in scientific experiments, facilitating the Scientific Revolution and permitting, ultimately, a way to fix longitude as well in global navigation.
That same technology also directly lead to the earliest mechanized looms for the production of cloth during the early Industrial Revolution.
It all came DIRECTLY from the "mighty crossbow" and the sophisticated triggers required to make them work.
It may seem like a simple analogous weapon to an existing composite strength bow, but you are, in fact, messing with highly sophisticated technology that is the technological basis for all of Early Modern Europe which laid the foundation for the modern world.
Just sayin
The difference is not in the recurve of the bows. Woods, horn and sinews were used to make them and their construction techniques were VERY similar. The drawstring on the crossbow was ultimately very different, but that is not critical on its own, either. (Though ultimately, braided wire is extremely sophisticated metallurgy.)
The BIG difference is in the trigger mechanism. One had one; the other did not. "Mighty crossbow" trigger mechanisms were the most sophisticated examples of engineering in the entire Medieval and early Renaissance world.
If you are wondering how the interplay of these crossbows "might" impact upon your gameworld, keep this in mind in terms of how our "real world" experience developed:
When it came to crossbows, the REAL high-technology involved went beyond the pull-weight of the bow. What was necessary to make it all work were increasingly sophisticated fine metallurgy skills and techniques that could make a small clasp which was strong enough to grasp and hold the drawn string and yet be able to release it smoothly. The stronger the draw weight, the more sophisticated the trigger had to be.
This was not a small point and was, in fact, THE high-tech of the early to mid-renaissance. There was a constant interplay between the metallurgists who were good enough to make these crossbow triggers and the armourers who tried to defeat them. While gunpowder ultimately overtook this process between crossbows and armour and made that competition moot, the technology in crossbows triggers had IMMEDIATE application and migrated to other weapon and non-weapon uses.
Because the trigger mechanisms were very similar, the metallurgists who worked on crossbows were the same artisans who developed all sophisticated triggers for Renaissance musketry. More importantly, as they mastered all of these skills, they became highly proficient in using small springs and tiny gears -- and that knowledge DIRECTLY lead to the manufacture of clocks and watches.
There is a REASON that "Swiss Watches" became the gold standard through modern Europe. The artisans who became Swiss Clock makers were the same artisans who developed the triggers for "mighty crossbows". Those weapon makers ultimately moved to Switzerland (and some to Bavaria) to escape taxation and being pressed into service by various and sundry of the nobility of France and northern Italy. Most of those soon to be "Swiss Clock Makers" spent most of their time supplying the Italian city states and their mercenary armies with increasingly stronger crossbows.
Because that same technology then permitted the creation of accurate time pieces, that in turn had a profound effect on the Enlightenment and permitted accurate time to be recorded and used in scientific experiments, facilitating the Scientific Revolution and permitting, ultimately, a way to fix longitude as well in global navigation.
That same technology also directly lead to the earliest mechanized looms for the production of cloth during the early Industrial Revolution.
It all came DIRECTLY from the "mighty crossbow" and the sophisticated triggers required to make them work.
It may seem like a simple analogous weapon to an existing composite strength bow, but you are, in fact, messing with highly sophisticated technology that is the technological basis for all of Early Modern Europe which laid the foundation for the modern world.
Just sayin
Last edited:
tylermalan
First Post
...touche.
The Black Kestrel
Explorer
I agree totally and to truly represent the lethality of the crossbow you can have it ignore armor/natural armor/shield bonus to AC equal to its damage die for the first two range increments e.g. a heavy crossbow would ignore 10 points of armor/natural armor/shield bonus to AC out to 240'. While the ROF still sucks (the primary advantage of the bow mechanically) this optional rule certainly makes them an obviously viable weapon choice and puts them on par with firearms as well (as they should be, especially early firearms).
TheAuldGrump
First Post
The other limiting factor of a crossbow is the mechanism used to draw it - the heavy crossbow is essentially a 'mighty crossbow', relying on a cranequin rather than the user's strength to draw it. A stronger user might be able to get it drawn faster though... maybe.This isn't a bad idea in terms of gameplay, but in terms of the underlying technology, "mighty crossbows" are vastly more sophisticated than any composite longbow and were developed more than a few millennia after those simple devices were first created.
The difference is not in the recurve of the bows. Woods, horn and sinews were used to make them and their construction techniques were VERY similar. The drawstring on the crossbow was ultimately very different, but that is not critical on its own, either. (Though ultimately, braided wire is extremely sophisticated metallurgy.)
The BIG difference is in the trigger mechanism. One had one; the other did not. "Mighty crossbow" trigger mechanisms were the most sophisticated examples of engineering in the entire Medieval and early Renaissance world.
If you are wondering how the interplay of these crossbows "might" impact upon your gameworld, keep this in mind in terms of how our "real world" experience developed:
When it came to crossbows, the REAL high-technology involved went beyond the pull-weight of the bow. What was necessary to make it all work were increasingly sophisticated fine metallurgy skills and techniques that could make a small clasp which was strong enough to grasp and hold the drawn string and yet be able to release it smoothly. The stronger the draw weight, the more sophisticated the trigger had to be.
This was not a small point and was, in fact, THE high-tech of the early to mid-renaissance. There was a constant interplay between the metallurgists who were good enough to make these crossbow triggers and the armourers who tried to defeat them. While gunpowder ultimately overtook this process between crossbows and armour and made that competition moot, the technology in crossbows triggers had IMMEDIATE application and migrated to other weapon and non-weapon uses.
Because the trigger mechanisms were very similar, the metallurgists who worked on crossbows were the same artisans who developed all sophisticated triggers for Renaissance musketry. More importantly, as they mastered all of these skills, they became highly proficient in using small springs and tiny gears -- and that knowledge DIRECTLY lead to the manufacture of clocks and watches.
There is a REASON that "Swiss Watches" became the gold standard through modern Europe. The artisans who became Swiss Clock makers were the same artisans who developed the triggers for "mighty crossbows". Those weapon makers ultimately moved to Switzerland (and some to Bavaria) to escape taxation and being pressed into service by various and sundry of the nobility of France and northern Italy. Most of those soon to be "Swiss Clock Makers" spent most of their time supplying the Italian city states and their mercenary armies with increasingly stronger crossbows.
Because that same technology then permitted the creation of accurate time pieces, that in turn had a profound effect on the Enlightenment and permitted accurate time to be recorded and used in scientific experiments, facilitating the Scientific Revolution and permitting, ultimately, a way to fix longitude as well in global navigation.
That same technology also directly lead to the earliest mechanized looms for the production of cloth during the early Industrial Revolution.
It all came DIRECTLY from the "mighty crossbow" and the sophisticated triggers required to make them work.
It may seem like a simple analogous weapon to an existing composite strength bow, but you are, in fact, messing with highly sophisticated technology that is the technological basis for all of Early Modern Europe which laid the foundation for the modern world.
Just sayin
The heavy crossbow (arbalest) was actually slower than the early guns, but was much better at penetrating armor. The crossbow was the first weapon that the church tried to ban, with it a peasant could kill an armored knight.
*EDIT* Crossbows: the first point and click interface.
The Auld Grump
SteelDraco
First Post
I think they should have some kind of armor penetration ability represented by a bonus to attacks against heavily-armored targets, but not that strong. Then again, I don't like the gunslinger's ability to make touch attacks with a gun, which is intended to be the same mechanic. If you buy the gunslinger touch attack deed as a good idea, I can see it for a crossbow as well.
This is a foible with the abstraction that is armor class - the crossbow mechanics are easier to balance in a system with armor as damage reduction.
