D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[James Gasik]

That and no bonus skills, languages or much of anything.

Most of our groups clerics dump strength. Pure spellcaster or dex based finesse weapon and shield.
Possibly shillagh as well.

It's pretty easy to do, and I've seen it a lot. You spend a lot of time prone, lol.

 

[Zardnaar]

I hate playing low Int characters, personally, but I made it clear that I absolutely did not want to play a spellcaster if I could get away with it, after coming off a campaign where I played a Wizard to level 10- I needed a break.

Dex based martial probably fighter or rogue can afford a moderate intelligence. Everyone else is to MAD.

 

[James Gasik]

Are you asserting that such monsters npcs & so on always have the spell prepared so they can burn a 3rd level slot to dispel the ritually casted LTH before the players complete their rest?

Huh? No...I'm just replying to the idea that someone who can cast Dispel Magic is also smart enough to know what to use it on. One does not necessarily follow the other.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm playing in a game with a character like that now because the DM insisted on point buy. The smartest PC in the group has Int 10. It's a sad state of affairs.

Use charisma.

 

[Maxperson]

So the players can discover information about the world without you having to tell them? How do they do this?

That's very different from my not giving them information for the express purpose of causing them to feel pressure. If they find it, they find it. If they don't, they don't. It's not about what I want or any goal of mine. Any pressure they feel is pressure they put on themselves. Outside of the few times there is in fiction pressure from a situation I put them in.

 

[Maxperson]

Really I blame the game for not making Intelligence more important on a character class level, but that's an entirely different debate. I can't blame the Cleric, he needed Str for his melee weapon attacks and to wear his armor, Con for hit points to be in the front line and all important concentration saves, and Wisdom for spellcasting. One of his other stats was going to be low, and he felt that he'd rather have a Charisma bonus for Persuasion checks than an Int bonus for knowledge checks.

That's one of the reasons I have my players roll stats and give them the ability to swap one pair. You will almost never see a party that is completely dumb, uncharismatic, or whatever.

 

[Scott Christian]

How many enemies, do you suppose, know what LTH even is? Can they make the necessary Arcana check to know that the opaque thing that arrows and spears bounce off of contains enemies? It's easy to assume enemies are prepared for the player's shenanigans, but in reality, the monsters should know as much about the PC's as the PC's know about the monsters- and since 5e lacks a dedicated monster knowledge system, that runs into it's own problems.

Many of them. I don't know about you, but our games generally revolve around something more than a bunch of carrion crawlers eating garbage in a city sewer. There are thieves' guilds, yuan-ti sects, gnoll hordes, orc strongholds, dragons, a myriad of demons, undead (many of which are intelligent), deurgar and drow cities, modrone cumminities, ogres and onis, goblin enclaves, hags, and anything in hell. That is 3/4 of the Monster Manual. All of these could have the ability to know what LTH is. All of these could make life miserable for someone sleeping inside for 8 hours and then getting up to "go adventuring." Heck, half of them, if the DM was playing with any fidelity, would probably be able to wipe out the party the second they came out of the hut.

Some adventures aren't designed to take LTH into account. Or Rope Trick. Or Catnap. Or Galder's Tower. Or House of Cards. Or Alarm. I could go on, but there's any number of tools players are handed to them by the game itself to overcome challenges in the field.

All of the WotC adventures are designed with LTH in mind. It is a literal spell you get at 5th level. Try using it in Storm King's Thunder where some hill giants find out where you are. See what happens. If they don't know where you are, then it is very similar to hiding and getting a long rest. The only difference is you escape getting awoken by a wandering monster. Big deal.

Also, again, if we as DM's have to go to such lengths to make sure the players don't use said tools just to make the game run smoothly, isn't that a huge problem? Why are we forced to fight against the system itself when we want, say, rations to matter in a world with Goodberry or Create Food and Water? When we want to force players to rest on our schedule, when the game literally says to them "if you want to rest, use this!". At what point are we making sure there are enemies immune to radiant damage so Spirit Guardians doesn't wreck every encounter with large numbers of enemies? At what point do we avoid using undead because the Cleric might turn them?

The DM doesn't have to go through any length. If the DM did their job in creating good hooks, a narrative that works for the players, and something other than mindless monsters, then LTH is not an overpowered or game breaking spell.

I believe that getting into an arms race with one's own players isn't healthy for a good game- so why does 5e seem to encourage us to do just that?

There is no arms race. There is a consequence for sitting in a stronghold, or plane of hell, or lich's realm, or cultists' dungeon, or dragon's lair and sleeping for eight hours if you are found. That's all. If the players believe the narrative, they will understand that their opponents are not mindless, but instead, evil and intelligent. Once they believe that, LTH is simply a way to rest in hiding while avoiding wandering monsters. (If you use such things.)

 

[Parmandur]

All of the WotC adventures are designed with LTH in mind.

It always confuses me when people state that WotC published campaigns either don't follow the Adventure Day guidelines (they do) or don't provide ways to get the clock ticking for players, or provide consequences for shenanigans like this. They very much do.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

They can, but probably won't since they are below average in intelligence. It's unlikely that they will think of it on their own.

Huh? No...I'm just replying to the idea that someone who can cast Dispel Magic is also smart enough to know what to use it on. One does not necessarily follow the other.

So at what INT level is any specific usage of Dispel Magic allowed by said Arcana Cleric?

It is sounding like you might possibly be proponents of a DM stating "your character wouldn't do that", if the player of that INT 8 Arcana Cleric were to try to cast it in certain situations. Or am I misinterpreting your stance here?

 

[Maxperson]

So at what INT level is any specific usage of Dispel Magic allowed by said Arcana Cleric?

It's not a matter of allowed. It's a matter of whether you roleplay your character or not. If you're playing an unintelligent person, coming up with lots of good ideas isn't good roleplaying. At that point you are playing something your character is not.

It is sounding like you might possibly be proponents of a DM stating "your character wouldn't do that", if the player of that INT 8 Arcana Cleric were to try to cast it in certain situations. Or am I misinterpreting your stance here?

Nope. I'd never say that to a player. However, I do expect people to roleplay their characters when playing in a game that I run. If someone steps badly out of character, and I don't mean one instance of dispelling something with an 8 int, but rather if it becomes a pattern, I will talk to that player about it one on one outside of the game. If the behavior continues, the player will be asked to leave so that he doesn't pull down the quality(as my group plays) of the game that I run.

At no point, though, would I stoop to telling a player what his character attempts to accomplish.