D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Stalker0]

In a nutshell, the dnd encounter model is backwards.


The model should assume that a party is at 100% juice for every encounter. And the system should be designed so that abilities mostly reset per encounter. 4e did it right in that regard.

And then....attrition is a function of the encounter itself. Take the mummy for example. You get cursed, and now you can't heal. Oh no...suddenly hp attrition goes from a non-factor into a major deal. Aka attrition should be the spice a DM can throw in, they can set an encounter with the idea "ok today I want my players sweating about hp over the day", and they can add in encounter elements that create those attrition effects. But the core game should assume minimal attrition, because that is the only way to balance the game for 1 fight a day or 10 fights a day. Make that the core....and give the DM the tools to add in attrition when they want that to be a factor in their encounters.

 

[payn]

In a nutshell, the dnd encounter model is backwards.


The model should assume that a party is at 100% juice for every encounter. And the system should be designed so that abilities mostly reset per encounter. 4e did it right in that regard.

And then....attrition is a function of the encounter itself. Take the mummy for example. You get cursed, and now you can't heal. Oh no...suddenly hp attrition goes from a non-factor into a major deal. Aka attrition should be the spice a DM can throw in, they can set an encounter with the idea "ok today I want my players sweating about hp over the day", and they can add in encounter elements that create those attrition effects. But the core game should assume minimal attrition, because that is the only way to balance the game for 1 fight a day or 10 fights a day. Make that the core....and give the DM the tools to add in attrition when they want that to be a factor in their encounters.

PF2 works in this manner, or at least much closer to it. I actually prefer the adventure day attrition model myself, but have come to the conclusion you need to pick a lane between adventure day and encounter model. Splitting the difference as 5E has, just seems to give everybody headaches.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Absolutely. When playing OSR games it’s completely different for me. The world is, game be damned.

That's how I run every game.

 

[jayoungr]

Alot of the badwrongfunarguments at ENworld have caused this in 5E.

Most of the "badwrongfun" arguments I've seen on this forum since 2014 have been complaining about 5E.

 

[payn]

Well OSR you can have 1 encounter and have it be threatening.

People will always vote for free suger. Then complain about getting fat. Then vote for men more suger.

Alot of the badwrongfunarguments at ENworld have caused this in 5E.

Mearls might be using a bit of hyperbole but newer players are very use em or lose em. Eg casting spelks every round.

By encounter 3 they're low on slots depending on level. They're using 2 or 3 spells per encounter plus reactions eg shield.

Allergic to taking damage and using hit dice.

5.5 has incentivized short rests though for most classes.

As I try to decipher what you are saying, can you help me understand what you think "badwrongfun" means?

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

PF2 works in this manner, or at least much closer to it. I actually prefer the adventure day attrition model myself, but have come to the conclusion you need to pick a lane between adventure day and encounter model. Splitting the difference as 5E has, just seems to give everybody headaches.

Yep, and you can still do time-pressure-attrition as a treat if you do a few low-stakes encounters back to back. Its pretty good stuff.

 

[Charlaquin]

RAW you only make around 3 per day. 1 nay be when they do a LR. 18 or better on a d20.

Yeah, RAW rules for random encounters suck.

 

[Charlaquin]

Sure, but unless you’re presenting a false choice, there will be times they don’t face random encounters. Which bring back the problem.

I’m not sure what you mean. The risk will be enough to prevent the players from trying to long rest in a dungeon most of the time. They might still try it if they’re desperate, but in that case the odds of going 8 hours without a random encounter will prevent them from finishing a long rest most of the time. On the rare occasion that they both take the risk and get lucky enough to finish the long rest, sure, they’ll have an easier time with the rest of the dungeon than expected. That’s fine. Some encounters being very easy for the players can be a good thing, especially when they feel like they earned that easy win through their good decision-making.

 

[Zardnaar]

As I try to decipher what you are saying, can you help me understand what you think "badwrongfun" means?

People have been pushing for a toning down of some things that made D&D more threatening.

Ultimate result is this bloated hit point attrition model and whack a mole healing.

Conditions are easy to get rid of (bonus action lvl 2 spell). Hit point return in full lots of damage mitigate effects.

They've ramped up monster damage to compensate which doesn't work or DM has to focus fire since HP on PCs are still mostly 3.5 level of hit points.

With bloated hp totals and weak saves there's a lot of incentive to win initiative and neutralize something before it can do anything.

5.5 monsters hit really hard but its trivial to stop them hitting.

 

[Charlaquin]

Unfortunately, that isn't how resting works in either the 2014 or 2024 versions of 5e.

In 2014, any interruption to a rest less than 1 hour does not stop the long rest from completing successfully (Confirmed by both Mearls and Crawford). So a random encounter fight will not change anything (unless it kills a PC entirely)

Spoiler: Designer Quotes

sevensideddie -- How are Long Rest interruptions meant to work? The land is in confusion & dismay!
mikemearls -- interruption needs to be a full hour. Testers: "We rest 7 hours, a kobold knocks on the door, and now we have to start over?
sevensideddie -- Oh. But that means combat will never interrupt rest, since a 600-round combat is unheard of. Why list it at all then?
mikemearls -- there could be cases where it's valid - fight starts, now you need to leave the dungeon
sevensideddie -- Ah, so it’s meant to be fairly rare, more “we’ve given up resting for now,” not just attacks on the camp.
mikemearls -- exactly

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dmgpunk-- JeremyECrawford Hope you're having a restful night. Speaking of rest, will participating in 1 round of combat break a short/long rest?
JeremyECrawford -- Any amount of fighting breaks a short rest. A long rest can withstand an interruption of up to 1 hour. #DnD

In 2024, you can resume a long rest after an interruption, provided you rest for an additional hour. So an 8 hour rest interrupted by 2 fights still gives you all resources back fully, as long as you can spare an extra two hours. Again, the only way an encounter prevents the long rest is if it kills a PC.

That’s fine. It still makes waiting around for 8 hours in the middle of a dungeon waiting for monsters to come beat you up a risk most players aren’t going to want to take. Even if they can resume the rest afterwards, they’ll very likely need to get through multiple fights, without armor, and without their resources having refreshed yet.