D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[prabe]

Yeah, because they didn’t want to do that many encounters. But that is what the system was built around.

What the system was built around (at least, according to the 2014 DMG) was "Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six or eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can handle more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer."

Obviously, that means that not every day needs to have six or eight encounters, so long as you keep an eye on the difficulty. Hell, I bet that why most DMs ran fewer encounters, and they tried to make them harder. The problem is that what the 2014 DMG called the various encounter difficulties didn't align well with how most DMs understood the words.

 

[Charlaquin]

Attrition model takes time IRL. 6-8 encounters may be 3 or 4 sessions.

And after 1-3 weeks between sessions people tend to forget things so....

Not if you’re playing efficiently. One of the design goals back during the D&D Next playtest was for combats to take about 10 minutes on average. And, in my playtest group’s experience, that goal was met successfully. Granted, those combats were each against like, a half dozen kobolds at most.

People often look at the number of encounters expected per day and think that sounds like a slog, forgetting that, if you’re following the encounter building guidelines, those combats will only take about 3 rounds each. Even with a group who takes their time in combat, 3 rounds should not be taking an hour.

 

[mamba]

There's also the issue that attrition-based adventuring is boring. I want encounters to be (somewhat) dangerous in and of themselves, not just speed bumps where the challenge is to see how few resources I can spend dealing with them.

yeah, especially since they gradually shaved off most of the actual attrition… 6e should move away from that to a per encounter approach

While I haven't had the opportunity to actually play it yet, I like Draw Steel's solution in theory.

or something like this one

 

[Charlaquin]

That wont fix the problem.

They've turned combat into hit point based attrition since 4E.

Dude, combat has been hit point based attrition since Chainmail

 

[Zardnaar]

DM specials that have done the best.

1. High AC. 20-22
2. 300+ hp. Baldurgs fate goes to 400-666.
3. Greater magic resistance or
4. 4-5 legendary saves +7 wisdom save or higher with spell resistance
5. Immunities to conditions. Paralysis Stun, prone, and paralysis

 

[Zardnaar]

Dude, combat has been hit point based attrition since Chainmail

Kinda. I was referring to save or dies and things like old school energy drain. PCs still needed to be cautious.

Monsters were scary. Poisons now just damage. Breath weapons are anemic, energy drains a sad joke.

I wouldn't use old school energy drain myself but it would do exhaustion levels instead.

5E monster and 4E are sad sacks.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, it's subjective, but considering the number of people who aren't playing it with 20 rounds of fighting per day I think I have some support for my thesis.

I think part of the issue is also that the default starting level for 5.0 was 1, and at level 1 you absolutely can't handle 20 rounds of combat without a long rest. (I believe 5.5 recommends starting at 3 unless it's your first time playing in which case you might need the "tutorial levels" 1 and 2). People recognized this and designed accordingly, and then kept that design going at higher levels. Another factor is that a 6-9 encounter adventure, as described in the 5.0 DMG is really very long, and it's hard to keep interest for that kind of time. There's a reason the "five-room dungeon" is a thing.

HP bloat also takes a while to dig through.

Play B/X some time. So much faster and easier.

Modern players want power and complexity. The downside of that is.....

 

[Zardnaar]

Not if you’re playing efficiently. One of the design goals back during the D&D Next playtest was for combats to take about 10 minutes on average. And, in my playtest group’s experience, that goal was met successfully. Granted, those combats were each against like, a half dozen kobolds at most.

People often look at the number of encounters expected per day and think that sounds like a slog, forgetting that, if you’re following the encounter building guidelines, those combats will only take about 3 rounds each. Even with a group who takes their time in combat, 3 rounds should not be taking an hour.

Maybe at low level.

Go have a look at CR3 monsters. I ran a 5.0 adventure and a wight jumped from 45 to 81 HP. 6 kobolds can be horrible level 1, easy level 2.

 

[Parmandur]

yeah, especially since they gradually shaved off most of the actual attrition… 6e should move away from that to a per encounter approach


or something like this one

I doubt D&D will want or can move away from the daily attrition model. As it is, it is opt-in as the game will function if the players are not pushed.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think part of the issue is also that the default starting level for 5.0 was 1, and at level 1 you absolutely can't handle 20 rounds of combat without a long rest. (I believe 5.5 recommends starting at 3 unless it's your first time playing in which case you might need the "tutorial levels" 1 and 2).

Yeah, levels 1 and 2 each only take half an adventuring day to gain enough XP to level up. By design, because they’re supposed to be tutorial levels. Should be about 3 combats each if they’re designed according to the encounter balance guidelines, and most levels after that last for about two adventuring days. Ish. Most levels take around 10 combats to gain enough EXP to level up, a few take 12, and if I recall correctly 5th level takes 15.

People recognized this and designed accordingly, and then kept that design going at higher levels. Another factor is that a 6-9 encounter adventure, as described in the 5.0 DMG is really very long, and it's hard to keep interest for that kind of time. There's a reason the "five-room dungeon" is a thing.

20 rounds of combat is really not that long. Again, 3 rounds should be doable in about 10 minutes, maybe 15 for a slow group, so 20 rounds should be doable in an hour or two, leaving a typical D&D session with an hour or two for exploring the dungeon between those combats and and hour or two of interacting with NPCs in town before and/or after.