D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Maxperson]

You know what? I was already annoyed by jur judgmental behavior, but if you insult my players intelligence, then I'd rather not be having conversation with you at all.

They misread the spell, it happens. There is nothing more to it.

The comment didn't have to do with misreading a spell. It happens. They tried to cast a spell in combat and didn't realize it took a minute. What seems to be less than stellar decision making is in declaring it to be a useless spell because it wasn't useful for being cast while in combat. That spell has many amazing uses. It's a top tier spell.

 

[Maxperson]

To a certain degree, giving clear hints versus petting players FAFO is about playstyle: bot all of us are up to going full Gygaxian consequences on unwary friends and family (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

Yeah. I'm not suggesting that it be all about gotchas. The point is that sometimes it's going to be clear and the DM is going to say it outright, or imply it.

Sometimes, though, it's just logical and obvious to assume that if you leave 6 dead bodies in a storeroom and then leave, they might be discovered while you are resting and things could go very wrong because of it. I shouldn't be expected to have to give clear hints that leaving a bunch of dead bodies lying around in a lived in place is a bad idea.

If the party wants to chance it, they chance it and if it goes very wrong, they made the wrong decision. If it doesn't, they made the right decision.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

The comment didn't have to do with misreading a spell. It happens. They tried to cast a spell in combat and didn't realize it took a minute. What seems to be less than stellar decision making is in declaring it to be a useless spell because it wasn't useful for being cast while in combat. That spell has many amazing uses. It's a top tier spell.

They decided it's not their playstyle. My players woudl rather end fights quickly and I guess tactics tiny hut is good forjsut aren't their style. I still think insulting their intelligence for disagreeing with "the meta" like Longinus did is uncalled for and rude.

 

[tetrasodium]

. Rather, I think that most of the time when players engage the 5 minute work day, it's the DM's fault for freezing the world and allowing it.

Stop.
Backup.
I refuse to even respond to the rest of your points until you acknowledge that you have read and understand the problem with that bold bit where you attempt to assign blame to the gm for the fact that the players don't need to care about the consequences of taking the rest while the world continues on you've quoted more than once me explaining why it either doesn't matter what the consequences are or why having the consequences actually matter will rocket the game session /campaign towards collapse when the players are fully of the belief that they are in the right with their nova loop.

Once you have done that maybe go back and edit or repost your post to account for what you overlooked to get a very wrong impression on so many things.

 

[kigmatzomat]

People do things in real life without needing to map video game mechanics to them, I see no reason why it should be different for in-universe rpg characters. You trying to strawman my argument increasingly makes it look like you cannot accept a story with any less 4th wall-breaking than Order of the Stick.

Tell me you've never known a competitive runner, weight lifter, cyclist, fencer, swimmer without telling me you've never known those people.

They have logs, regimen, strategies and such following a pattern that goes well back to the middle ages.

Heck, tell me you've never read historical texts purporting to be manuals for sorcery. I have maybe a half dozen english translations of 16th century books claiming to be 8th century books with weeks-long processes for summoning spirits, enchanting rings, making magic mirrors, hands of glory, etc. You have to track moon signs, which plants flower or bloom on which day, what the breeding season is for different animals, on and on and on. Yes, its that complex because its mumbo-jumbo and the complexity hides the mumbo behind the jumbo.

And it's not like the plateaus between spells are invisible.

"Hmmm, fireball takes 3x as long to prepare as magic missile but I can only cast it once, unless I cast a 5-dart magic missile when I can't cast fireball at all until I rest. And if I cast 4-dart magic missile I can't cast shatter and shatter takes 2x as long to prepare as magic missile, but casting 3-dart magic missile has no impact on how often I can cast shatter or fireball. And you know, it costs 50gp to transcribe magic missile, 100gp to copy shatter and 150gp to copy fireball. There seems to be a natural break point between these things that correlates cost & difficulty to transcribe, preparation time, and capacity for daily spellcasting.
I shall call them Laurentis Levels!" - the Wizard Laurentis, 7 hojillion years ago

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, but the player decision is still informed by the situation the GM presents, ie. cultists instead of fixed automatons or something. And yes, something the PCs could not have anticipated could happen too if they wait, though generally I feel it is better for agency to telegraph these things at least a little bit so that the players can make more informed strategic choices.

What is there to telegraph is the PCs decide to leave 6 dead cultist bodies lying in a room at a mansion cultists live at? They already know that it's a bad idea and will be highly likely that the situation will be altered before they return a day later. I don't think I should be obligated to make it even more obvious to them.

For me, telegraphing is for things that they couldn't possibly know. If they are in a mountain pass and there's a medusa in a cave ahead, there will be animal, monster and/or humanoid statues around to telegraph it.

I'm not into gotchas, but I'm also not into hand holding the players. It's their job to know that if they fireball the front door of the palace and then run away for 24 hours, bad stuff is happening behind them.

Yes, sure. But the last bit was the real area of contention, @Not a Decepticon saying that wanting to rest means the players are jerks. That is what I had an issue with. Letting them rest but then having logical consequences to follow from that is perfectly fine and I've at no point objected that.

I don't agree with him about that.

 

[Mort]

The comment didn't have to do with misreading a spell. It happens. They tried to cast a spell in combat and didn't realize it took a minute. What seems to be less than stellar decision making is in declaring it to be a useless spell because it wasn't useful for being cast while in combat. That spell has many amazing uses. It's a top tier spell.

For me, if a new group misreads a spell THAT badly (missing that it's a 1 minute casting time), I will prompt them. "That has a minute casting time, you sure about this?" Last time this came up (Can't remember the spell but it was something with a minute casting time) - the player realized had made a mistake and did something else.

 

[Maxperson]

Well two attacks is a level 5 warrior or bladelock.

With multiclassing it could be anything from 5-20.

2 attacks is a level 5 barbarian, a level 14 wizard 9/fighter 5, a level 7 ranger 5/cleric 2, a level 6 wizard(bladesinger), and on and on.

You cannot look at the elf in a chain shirt and a longsword in one hand and have any idea of level based on two attacks with the longsword.

 

[Zardnaar]

2 attacks is a level 5 barbarian, a level 14 wizard 9/fighter 5, a level 7 ranger 5/cleric 2, a level 6 wizard(bladesinger), and on and on.

You cannot look at the elf in a chain shirt and a longsword in one hand and have any idea of level based on two attacks with the longsword.

Not realky. Coukd very DM takeout. Eldritch Knight 5. Wizard 15 with pre cast foresight via scroll. Technically a gish more like CR12 archmage

 

[Maxperson]

I refuse to even respond to the rest of your points until you acknowledge that you have read and understand the problem with that bold bit where you attempt to assign blame to the gm

I'm breaking this up because it doesn't make sense to me a whole.

I think its the DM's fault because 1) I have never had the 5 MWD with any group, and the reason is that the world moves and responds while they rest when it's appropriate for the circumstances, and 2) I have played in games where the 5 MWD happened, it it was because the DM just froze things and didn't have the world respond like I do.

I very firmly believe the 5 MWD is a DM issue, not a player issue.

for the fact that the players don't need to care about the consequences of taking the rest while the world continues on you've quoted more than once me explaining why it either doesn't matter what the consequences are or why having the consequences actually matter will rocket the game session /campaign towards collapse when the players are fully of the belief that they are in the right with their nova loop.

I don't understand this. With what I've said there is no nova loop or campaign collapse inherent in it anywhere. There is some small potential for a TPK due to prep that happens if the players leave and rest, but it's very rare for things to go that badly.

Where are you getting nova loops and campaign destruction from?