D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Crimson Longinus]

Just because some video games also do things this way doesn't mean a TTRPG cannot, and not all video games have easy recovery necessarily. Both TTRPGs and video games are a spectrum, this is just where D&D has come down.

Yeah, sure. But in video game there really is not much expectation with the mechanics to align with the fiction: in some games they might, but that is rare. In a tabletop RPGs we the mechanics must align with the fiction far more closely.

Interestingly, I just checked, and...gritty realism alternate rules for resting are gone in 2024. There is some vague advice about pacing and how you can do it differently, but the specific mechabical suggestions from 2014? Gone.

Yes, I know. It is sad, they removed the best rule for fixing the pacing of the game.

 

[tetrasodium]

No, because they are opposite experiences. One wants recovery to be difficult, with multiple encounters wearing the party down over the course of some time frame. The other wants recovery to be easy with PCs being at full offensive power in each encounter.

I suppose you could get an Expert to do it.

That bold bit seems a bit off the mark though. The push there is to ensure that the GM has no meaningful say other than railroading levels of fiat. It's quite easy to provide an alternative rest that gives PCs greater returns more often for less because the PCs are ultimately designed with the expectation they will recover at some point. Doing it the other way around is extremely difficult because too much of the system is designed to baselines that would need one off edge case rules when dialing down recovery

If that summary about wanting to make sure the gm doesn't have meaningful influence over when it's reasonable or possible to take & complete a rest we would not have seen wotc avoid even optional rules supporting GMs on the matter for over a decade

So what is a drawback in that game of a fight going badly, but not so badly that you actually lose? And how is power use limited outside of combat? Are they spells, can they be cast infinitely? What do the recoveries do? What do the victories do?

It's complicated, but I'll try. Trying takes a bunch of explaining though because it justly slaughters the usual sacred cows... In no parti order...

The attack roll is gone. Both monsters and PCs always hit successfully. Instead you have a power roll that determines which of your abilities are available. You can always use an ability that needed a lower roll if you roll high but not the other way around if you roll high.

Each class has some kind of class specific resource used to power their abilities in combat (usually kinda free outside combat). Those resources are gained by doing things that fit the class theme and such so you tend to get more of your resource by playing your character and being awesome. The GM ALSO has a resource called Malice, iirc it's one per player each round of combat and it can be used for a bunch of stuff in combat.


Yiu get "victories" from finishing combats and other cool stuff deserving victories. Those victories go away & get converted to experience when you take a respite (think 24 hr mai tai's by the pool level rest). Players try to avoid taking a respite as long as possible because those victories ALSO influence their abilities in ways that make them more powerful in ways that experience does not. Ime there is usually more discussion about the players checking if everyone feels confident pushing a bit further and how the party could work it out if anyone's on the fence incomes up the times I've run it

But that means that there is attrition! And eh, "reverse-attrition" in the form of victories that make you stronger, I guess.

In WoW this does not exit. You start each fight with full resources and it does not matter how well or badly you've done in the previous ones. This is pure encounter based model.

There is BOTH, building up class specific heroic resources and gaining victories leads to a lot of coop cinematic and tactical play at the table

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, sure. But in video game there really is not much expectation with the mechanics to align with the fiction

Is there not...?

In a tabletop RPGs we the mechanics must align with the fiction far more closely.

Do they...?

Yes, I know. It is sad, they removed the best rule for fixing the pacing of the game.

I think it shows whether WotC perceives a major concern among their plauer base on this front.

 

[Maxperson]

And D&D isn't LotR or Conan too, at least videogames are games

D&D is both LotR and Conan. I know this because I've played D&D LotR and played through the D&D Conan module a long time ago. Those two IPs are a billion times closer to what roleplaying games are than a video game.

 

[Minigiant]

I still say the game should have been designed around PCs all being able to go 100% for 3 encounters. Then design a floor of 50% that if the characters can take turns going 50% and 100% (or meter out to 75%) over 6-8 encounters.

 

[Mort]

Yes, I know. It is sad, they removed the best rule for fixing the pacing of the game.

Unlike prior DMGs, the 5.24 one seems much more a new DM primer than a DM Toolbox. From what I've seen "alternate" rules are all but gone in favor of much more advice on running the game as presented. It's a more focused supplement.

Which, of course, doesn't help those looking for an alternative.

 

[Maxperson]

You know what people also enjoy, beyond action movies...? Video games.

And Baldur's Gate 3 is a great one. I don't want my sit down game to play like a video game, though. I want it to play like a sit down RPG.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, I'm not sure why video games and TTRPGs would have to be different here...? Plenty of video games have long recovery times within a fiction, it is neither here nor there, it is not inherent to either mediun.

Most don't, though. And all of the ones that do have long recovery times that I can remember are either D&D video games, or ones heavily inspired by D&D.

 

[Maxperson]

I think it shows whether WotC perceives a major concern among their plauer base on this front.

Maybe. A lot of the optional rules are gone. I think it has more to do with space issues than with player priorities.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Is there not...?

No, there is not. We do not closely examine what extra lives that Supermario collects to be able to start the level again if he dies imply from the perspective of the narrative. We do not think that in the fiction of the World of Warcraft people who are killed merely respawn on the nearest graveyard. The examples would be endless.

Do they...?

Yes, because the RPGs are mainly about the fiction, and are far more interactive than any computer game. The players can attempt basically any sort of thing conceivable in the fiction, and the mechanics are there to merely represent it.

I think it shows whether WotC perceives a major concern among their plauer base on this front.

Yes, obviously. I wish you would drop this tangent, it is pointless. We all know that WotC is not going to do anything about it at least for several years and possibly ever. Whether that will become an issue for them remains to be seen, and is ultimately something none of use here can know. Several people here have identified what they feel is a problem for them in the game, we are discussing theoretical game design solutions to that. Whether or not WotC would implement such is irrelevant, and beyond the scope of this discussion.