D&D 5E Mike Mearls interview - states that they may be getting off of the 2 AP/year train.

[robus]

Either way makes it very hard to play the adventure as part of an ongoing campaign, unless the PCs have a time machine. Now it seems that WotC adventure paths are pretty much meant to be self-contained campaigns, so maybe that's not really an issue for most gamers these days.

I dunno, I just found out that Blagothkus, who's become a good buddy of my players in (HotDQ), murdered his own son (in SKT). My players are not going to buy that for a second. (Especially as Blagothkus is leading them to the Hall of the All Father where the crime was committed!)

 

[Remathilis]

I don't recall much of any rules in either the 1e or 2e versions of the FR setting. There's not much to convert. Maybe a few spells and magic items...
Campaign settings, by their nature are mostly rules agnostic. THAC0, BAB, or proficient bonus are irrelevant when describing a nation, trade, politics, history, and the like. You don't buy or read campaign settings for rules text.

You can use a 1e setting with 5e, or a Pathfinder setting with 5e, a RIFTs or Runequest setting with 5e, or even a novel that was never adapted to an RPG with 5e.

In the 2e version, you had rules for subraces, specialty priests, new kits, spells, spellfire, etc.

You COULD play the Realms 2e just with the PHB, but it lost a lot of flavor that way...

 

[Jester David]

In the 2e version, you had rules for subraces, specialty priests, new kits, spells, spellfire, etc.

You COULD play the Realms 2e just with the PHB, but it lost a lot of flavor that way...

Looking at my copies of the 1e and 2e Realms (dark grey and light grey boxed sets) I see a dozen or so spells in the former and nothing in the latter. So all those "subraces, speciality priests, new kits, spells, spellfire, etc" would have been in accessories. So they assumed you'd be playing without them.

Of those, subraces are already in the game. Speciality priests and kits aren't really a thing (beyond domains), spellfire is rare, so that leaves spells. Which are easy to update.

So between this: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/16782/Forgotten-Realms-Campaign-Set-1e?it=1 and this: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/28729/Forgotten-Realms-Campaign-Setting-3e?it=1 you have more than enough to run the Realms just fine.

 

[CapnZapp]

Looking at my copies of the 1e and 2e Realms (dark grey and light grey boxed sets) I see a dozen or so spells in the former and nothing in the latter. So all those "subraces, speciality priests, new kits, spells, spellfire, etc" would have been in accessories. So they assumed you'd be playing without them.

Of those, subraces are already in the game. Speciality priests and kits aren't really a thing (beyond domains), spellfire is rare, so that leaves spells. Which are easy to update.

So between this: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/16782/Forgotten-Realms-Campaign-Set-1e?it=1 and this: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/28729/Forgotten-Realms-Campaign-Setting-3e?it=1 you have more than enough to run the Realms just fine.

Please don't tell other people that you opinion is good enough for them too.

Thanks!

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Jester David]

Please don't tell other people that you opinion is good enough for them too.

Thanks!

How is it an opinion?

I said "I don't recall much of any rules in either the 1e or 2e versions of the FR setting."
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...f-of-the-2-AP-year-train/page38#ixzz4eQGFqdW2

Remathilis countered with "In the 2e version, you had rules for subraces, specialty priests, new kits, spells, spellfire, etc."
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...f-of-the-2-AP-year-train/page38#ixzz4eQGLHlTo

To which I pulled out the aforementioned 1e and 2e versions of the setting and found only spells in the former and monsters in the latter. That's not an opinion. You can go check yourself if you want.

I'm sure there was a wealth of optional content in the myriad accessories, but those were hardly required to run a campaign in the world. (If they were, it'd have been a jerk move on the part of TSR/WotC to spread out the "essentials" of the setting over dozens of books released over a decade.)

Because settings are just that: settings. You need the people and places and histories and mysteries and organisations. Which is all rules agnostic. You don't need a conversion guide for Cormyr. You don't need to convert trade from 1e terms to 5e terms or update the rules for noble courtly intrigue.

 

[Remathilis]

To which I pulled out the aforementioned 1e and 2e versions of the setting and found only spells in the former and monsters in the latter. That's not an opinion. You can go check yourself if you want.

I'm sure there was a wealth of optional content in the myriad accessories, but those were hardly required to run a campaign in the world. (If they were, it'd have been a jerk move on the part of TSR/WotC to spread out the "essentials" of the setting over dozens of books released over a decade.)

Because settings are just that: settings. You need the people and places and histories and mysteries and organisations. Which is all rules agnostic. You don't need a conversion guide for Cormyr. You don't need to convert trade from 1e terms to 5e terms or update the rules for noble courtly intrigue.

At the very least, you're ignoring FRA, which had updated 2e specialty priests right in the hardback. And as the setting grew, it became increasingly referential to the point that rules for running one class could require 5-7 books, especially for specialty priests with unique spells and spheres from multiple sources.

And it was a jerk move. So much so, WotC promised 3e would only ever need the PHB/DMG/MM to use a supplement. (A promise that died in late 3.5).

Now, if you're talking about coverting say, FRA to 5e, I agree; the fluff is (mostly) agnositic and most of the rules are supplanted by better 5e rules (such as subraces and domains) but my point was that FR in 2e required a myriad of books unless you chose to ignore a lot of the things that made Realms "The Realms" vs. a Greyhawk clone with different names and maps.

 

[Jester David]

At the very least, you're ignoring FRA, which had updated 2e specialty priests right in the hardback. And as the setting grew, it became increasingly referential to the point that rules for running one class could require 5-7 books, especially for specialty priests with unique spells and spheres from multiple sources.

I didn't ignore it, I just don't own that one.

Looking at the wikipedia page for that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Adventures
It looks less like a campaign setting product and more an edition update of the 1e product. It's the post-Time of Troubles book. It doesn't look like it has much world lore at all. It's pretty comparable to Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide really...
(Also, all that content didn't exist in 1e. So was the Realms missing "all its flavour" prior to this book?)

So, really, they had the 1987 boxed set and then this in 1990 and that was what they expected you to use for 2nd Edition. And that worked just fine.
It doesn't look like they did an actual update of the Realms again until the 1993 boxed set, four years after the launch of 2nd Edition.

And it was a jerk move. So much so, WotC promised 3e would only ever need the PHB/DMG/MM to use a supplement. (A promise that died in late 3.5).

We did only ever *need* those three. Everything else was pretty optional.
Don't recall that one, but that's a "campaign promise" if I ever heard one. A "no new taxes" or "make the trains run on time".

(And, really, you did only *need* those three. They had a wealth of accessories - for 2e, 3.0, and 3.5 - but they were optional.)

Now, if you're talking about coverting say, FRA to 5e, I agree; the fluff is (mostly) agnositic and most of the rules are supplanted by better 5e rules (such as subraces and domains) but my point was that FR in 2e required a myriad of books unless you chose to ignore a lot of the things that made Realms "The Realms" vs. a Greyhawk clone with different names and maps.

But if you ask people what the difference is between Greyhawk and the Realms, the readily given answer isn't "speciality priests", "spellfire", or kits. It's heroic high fantasy with good versus evil opposed to morally grey Swords & Sorcerery. An ideal Realms campaign is very different in tone and flavour than an ideal Greyhawk game, even if both are using the exact same rules.
(I'm uncertain how the Realms is a "Greyhawk clone" anyway, when the creation of the Realms predated Greyhawk...)

So much of the above can be supported through flavour. You don't *need* separate rules for each priesthood or every small subrace of elves and dwarves.
There was a wealth of lore in 2e (and 3e), but that was because of the heavy release schedule. Because they wanted to release so many books they expanded and added options onto the Realms. The material wasn't needed by the Realms, it was needed by the publisher who wanted to sell books. It's the definition of "tacked on". And if that material is now "essential" to the Realms then it's impossible to fully update the Realms, since there's no way WotC is going to release the 30-odd books "required".

The thing is, if they were going to release a big 320-page hardcover setting book for the Realms (likely with a MSRP of $60) then devoting 75-pages to player content - a quarter of the damn book - means 75-pages that isn't being used to describe people and places of the Realms. It's less actual setting and detail in favour of some new subclasses and subraces. Unless that content is super essential and unique to the Realms (spellscars, spellfire, shadow weave, Red Wizards) then it's pretty wasted.
But, paradoxically, if there is not hard 5th Edition mechanics, then that book can just be replaced with the FR Wiki or the exiting versions of the campaign setting.

 

[Remathilis]

But if you ask people what the difference is between Greyhawk and the Realms, the readily given answer isn't "speciality priests", "spellfire", or kits. It's heroic high fantasy with good versus evil opposed to morally grey Swords & Sorcerery. An ideal Realms campaign is very different in tone and flavour than an ideal Greyhawk game, even if both are using the exact same rules.
(I'm uncertain how the Realms is a "Greyhawk clone" anyway, when the creation of the Realms predated Greyhawk...)

So much of the above can be supported through flavour. You don't *need* separate rules for each priesthood or every small subrace of elves and dwarves.
There was a wealth of lore in 2e (and 3e), but that was because of the heavy release schedule. Because they wanted to release so many books they expanded and added options onto the Realms. The material wasn't needed by the Realms, it was needed by the publisher who wanted to sell books. It's the definition of "tacked on". And if that material is now "essential" to the Realms then it's impossible to fully update the Realms, since there's no way WotC is going to release the 30-odd books "required".

The thing is, if they were going to release a big 320-page hardcover setting book for the Realms (likely with a MSRP of $60) then devoting 75-pages to player content - a quarter of the damn book - means 75-pages that isn't being used to describe people and places of the Realms. It's less actual setting and detail in favour of some new subclasses and subraces. Unless that content is super essential and unique to the Realms (spellscars, spellfire, shadow weave, Red Wizards) then it's pretty wasted.
But, paradoxically, if there is not hard 5th Edition mechanics, then that book can just be replaced with the FR Wiki or the exiting versions of the campaign setting.

Let me hit you a little closer to home.

We don't need a Ravenloft setting book. All the 2e box sets or 3e Gazetteers work just fine with the 5e rules. Curse of Strahd showed Ravenloft works just fine without fear, horror, or madness checks, Powers checks, curses, modified spells and magic items, half-Vistani and Calibans, or psionics. In fact, The Red Box only has a few spells and magic items to convert, plus the domain lords themselves (and some of those are just MM monsters with a tweak; if Strahd can be a caster-vampire with a higher int, surely Azalin is just a lich or Soth a death knight). Reprinting a Ravenloft book is a waste when I can run the setting with just the red box.

Right?

 

[Staffan]

At the very least, they could have done an alien Anthology, and some paperback collections of class options, ie a Scoundrel's Handbook, etc.

I also think they could have explanded the game in a few ways, such as adding a ground combat equivalent to Starship Manuevers.

Next, they could have focused on Adventures, and surveyed the community for what people still felt was missing, or what could be fixed without needing a new edition.

Not to mention stuff like WEG used to do, with the Galaxy Guide books. Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments From The Rim, remains one of the best RPG books ever published, imo.

Such books could have, in addition to gear, and trivia like what music and drinks and food are popular, have deep delves into cultures, organizations, etc, including feats and talents related to being part of them. "If you are a part of the Sector Rangers, you can take talents from this Tree, regardless of class. " "Tapani Nobles can take Talents from this tree regardless of class". That sort of thing.

Certainly, Wizards could have made more books for Star Wars. But those books would not have been as profitable.

Let's say, just for the sake of the argument, that Wizards pays Lucasfilm one million dollars per year for the Star Wars license. The first year, they do the core book, a starships book, and a monster/NPC book. They sell really well, and Wizards makes ten million dollars. That's a great return on investment. The next year, they do books focusing on the criminal parts of the Star Wars universe, as well as a book about Force powers, both those of the Jedi and other assorted traditions. In addition, they release a series of books on playing in different eras: the Old Republic (based on the KOTOR computer game as well as the Tales of the Jedi comic), Force Unleashed, Clone Wars, and Legacy. These still do OK, but not as well as the core books, so Wizards makes five million dollars. The third year, they do another era book about the Rebellion era, a Droid sourcebook, and books about campaigns focused on war, intrigue, and exploration. At this point, the creative fires have dimmed a bit, so now they only make two million dollars. Spending one million dollars on a license that only makes you two million, and shows signs of making you even less next year, might not be the best of ideas, and so the license was cancelled.

Of course, the actual figures in my example probably have no bearing on reality (I have very little idea of how much the Star Wars RPG license costs per year, or how much the books sold), but they do serve to illustrate my point.

 

[Staffan]

I don't recall much of any rules in either the 1e or 2e versions of the FR setting. There's not much to convert. Maybe a few spells and magic items...
Campaign settings, by their nature are mostly rules agnostic. THAC0, BAB, or proficient bonus are irrelevant when describing a nation, trade, politics, history, and the like. You don't buy or read campaign settings for rules text.

You can use a 1e setting with 5e, or a Pathfinder setting with 5e, a RIFTs or Runequest setting with 5e, or even a novel that was never adapted to an RPG with 5e.

That depends, really. The Eberron setting, in particular, is rather strongly based on 3e's rules, particularly for magic. As in "Well, it's rather easy if somewhat expensive to make magic items - and not that expensive for low-level spells. And the prestidigitation cantrip can be used to clean things - you should be able to create a magic items based on prestidigitation that cleans clothes for only a few hundred gp. So, it makes sense that many villages would have a central location where people could take their dirty laundry and get it cleaned with magic instead of doing it by hand themselves."

And that level of "wide" magic would make little sense when used with other rules, but it's a big part of what makes Eberron tick.