Mike Mearls is a Genius

[eyebeams]

Neither are the exotic elements of FR or Greyhawk, unless there's secretly a whole lot of rules in the back of the LGreyhawk book about becoming a member of the nobility that I missed, or a Chosen of _____ Prestige Class in the FRCS I skimmed past.

In both cases, much of what makes the world interesting has to be done by DM fiat -- much like in Eberron.

Eberron can't be deficient because it lacks things that both the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk both are lacking, unless the argument is that all three have issues, which it isn't -- Mike's assertion is that Eberron isn't doing the same things right that FR and Greyhawk do. Of course, it's doing the exact same thing, and no one seems to be having much problem using it in the ways they'd use any other setting.

1) The rules sure do have a way of granting title: the Leadership feat. That feat is a descendant of the old rules for gaining followers (and, if a Fighter, title) at "Name" level.

2) There are rules for being one of the Chosen of Mystra. IIRC, it's a template. Furthermore, play balance isn't a bigger there since being a CoM is a way of justifying NPC advantage. So yes, the rules support an FR convention of global NPC influence.

In fact, the 3e Realms have been very big about attaching gears to anything of distinction.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

1) The rules sure do have a way of granting title: the Leadership feat. That feat is a descendant of the old rules for gaining followers (and, if a Fighter, title) at "Name" level.

The Leadership feat grants nobility? Or rank in the Greyhawk Thieves Guild? I could certainly see a DM deciding this was the case, but I've never heard of anyone saying that's what it entails to begin with.

2) There are rules for being one of the Chosen of Mystra. IIRC, it's a template.

That's a mechanical description of the end result, nothing about the process. It still comes down to DM fiat that could be invoked as early as character creation -- IOW, it's the same "problem" that Eberron has.

 

[Odhanan]

"LotR-lite is familiar to me, [the Eberron CS] isn't, I don't know how to run an LotR-lite game without the usual trappings?"

By the way, I argue that Eberron is in fact far from being without tolkienian implemented elements. The presence of the Last War is very significative regarding this (cf. Last Alliance and the concept of war leading to Tolkien's own experience of WW I and particularly the Battle of the Somme). This is one of the core concepts of the Lord of the Rings. Same thing about the forge, and the way technology can be evil. And the "Houses of Men" (cf. Silmarillion).

In fact, I'd say that FR are "Tolkienian" in aesthetics, or appearance, while Eberron is far more Tolkienian on its themes (and I do not mean "completely" Tolkienian by this - of course, it isn't).

(edit for orthograph)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

In fact, I'd say that FR are "tolkienian" in aesthetics, or appearance, while Eberron is far more Tolkienian on its themes.

I think you're right. Of course, gamers have always responded well to aesthetics -- hence the random boobage in the art.

 

[Odhanan]

We absolutely agree on this.

Of course, there's a kind of tradition in pulp fantasy (Conan models, anyone?) to "boobage" the art exceedingly. Which is a bit like taking me for the teen I'm not anymore, IMO.

 

[DaveMage]

Ok, I got to thinking about this whole thing a little more and I have reached the following conclusion:

It would be extremely cool if Mike gets hired by wizards and helps develop Planescape 3.5 specifically for epic-level play.

That's my vote and I'm sticking to it.

 

[A'koss]

Ok, I got to thinking about this whole thing a little more and I have reached the following conclusion:

It would be extremely cool if Mike gets hired by wizards and helps develop Planescape 3.5 specifically for epic-level play.

That's my vote and I'm sticking to it.

Hell yes. I'd buy that in a heartbeat! That, and I'd say he's probably one of the best picks to spearhead 4e. It's a bitter pill though, I'm just gettin' into the IHs groove and Mike's lookin' fer a job at WotC? Ack!

 

[eyebeams]

The Leadership feat grants nobility? Or rank in the Greyhawk Thieves Guild? I could certainly see a DM deciding this was the case, but I've never heard of anyone saying that's what it entails to begin with.

Hairsplitting -- and you've got it the wrong way around. Noble titles are a way to support the existence of the Leadership feat, not the other way around.

(Plus, do I really need to tell anyone who knows the game that the Leadership feat was created as a catchall to do exactly what you mentioned? Didn't think so.)

As I said: the structure of the story implied in the rules leads the way for the campaign.

That's a mechanical description of the end result, nothing about the process. It still comes down to DM fiat that could be invoked as early as character creation -- IOW, it's the same "problem" that Eberron has.

No it isn't. Being a Chosen of Mystra isn't a form of character advancement in FR. It's a primarily NPC benefit (read: a way for the NPC Chosen to have a leg up). You get as much support for PC Chosen as you do for PC liches (another template) and for the same reasons.

 

[Gez]

By the way, I argue that Eberron is in fact far from being without tolkienian implemented elements. The presence of the Last War if very significative regarding this (cf. Last Alliance and the concept of war leading to Tolkien's own experience of WW I and particularly the Battle of the Somme). This is one of the core concepts of the Lord of the Rings. Same thing about the forge, and the way technology can be evil. And the "Houses of Men" (cf. Silmarillion).

In fact, I'd say that FR are "Tolkienian" in aesthetics, or appearance, while Eberron is far more Tolkienian on its themes (and I do not mean "completely" Tolkienian by this - of course, it isn't).

Eberron Elves are far more Tolkienian in feel than FR elves. Sure, FR elves are imitating Tolkien's elves by Retreating to Evermeet (this was lame, fortunately it's over now); but that's aesthetic.

Eberronian elves have all the mystic of Tolkien elves, the worship of past heroes, the urge to preserve what they have and what they like in perfect stasis, the confuse feeling their time is over, against which they lash out by becoming deathless or undead...

Core D&D elves are supposedly chaotic, chaotic good for the civilized high, wood, and gray elves, chaotic neutral for the barbarian wild elves, chaotic evil for the decadent drow. Eberron's elves aren't chaotic in one bit.

From the latest Dragonshards:

Beyond its fascination with the death and the deathless, Aerenal is a land that looks to the past to shape the present. The Aereni elves place tradition above all else: Artists and bards are expected to perfect ancient techniques instead of developing new styles. The elves apply themselves to their work with uncanny devotion; an elven bowyer may spend centuries honing his skills, and produce bows the like of which a human craftsman could only dream. But he still follows the traditions of the past, and the bow he makes today is a mirror of one that could be found in a 5,000-year-old tomb.​

Of course, you still had to have the "elven craft is soooooo much better than anything else" bit. Why don't WotC finally acknowledges they can't help but have elvencraft be the be-all, end-all, super-duper extra-mega-better-than-everything-else craftmanship, and give elves a +50 racial bonus on all Craft checks? Sheesh. That or just saying that elves are the best crafters ever. The best crafters ever are dwarves for anything stone- or metal-related, the gnomes for alchemical products, and the kobolds for traps.

 

[Felon]

Of course, you still had to have the "elven craft is soooooo much better than anything else" bit. Why don't WotC finally acknowledges they can't help but have elvencraft be the be-all, end-all, super-duper extra-mega-better-than-everything-else craftmanship, and give elves a +50 racial bonus on all Craft checks? Sheesh. That or just saying that elves are the best crafters ever.

Because you're full of , Gez. There's not really anything to acknowledge.

The best crafters ever are dwarves for anything stone- or metal-related, the gnomes for alchemical products, and the kobolds for traps.

Yes they are. Dwarves are the ones puported to be the best metal and stoneworkers, and gnomes are master alchemists, and it would seem the designers are in agreement with you since these are the races that actually enjoy racial bonuses to those skills. So what the heck are you going on about other than basically issuing a major overreaction to a bit of flavor text? Masterwork is masterwork.