D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Minigiant]

I mean, that means it was on purpose.

They just didn't specifically set out to do that. They clearly had vision for what 5e would be, more than once, but steadily ceded more and more and more ground over time. That's why they surrendered the playtest Sorcerer/Warlock. That's why they abandoned the "tactical combat module". That's why the "Fighter Warlord" and martial healing were total vaporware despite Mearls giving a full-throated defenses of the latter on Twitter.

I don't know if I was the person who called it an "apology edition" first. But I've definitely called it that many times, and there's a very good reason for it. It is shackled to a bizarre hybrid of 3rd edition structure and old school concepts, not really achieving what either side particularly wanted. They took no action which might offend the delicate sensibilities of the angry 3e and 2e edition warriors who were busy with their victory dance.

The designers had a bias to old school gaming. However it was the survey results that tilted the game by cutting good ideas.

Overall from 2nd edition to 3rd edition to 4th edition to 5th edition all we've been doing is given the fan base less and less restrictions so it's no surprise that they voted for less restriction and end up with a situation where their low restriction spells can control the hell out of the boss monsters.

The mistake the designers did is not sneak in to counterweights for these restrictions.

The counterweights can be hidden.

I bet you 75% of the people who bought 5.5 don't realize that most mid to high level legendary monsters have Proficiency in three saving throws.

"The players will vote out the fun of the game.
Designers have to sneak it back in."

 

[mamba]

The wheels don’t come off, but my little city car is not very stable at 80+ mph. But that would involve breaking the law, so it shouldn’t be doing that anyway.

except that in the analogy being level 15 is not illegal… and depending on the country driving 80 mph is not either

 

[Mort]

It still baffles me that they removed Bloodied from 5.0. Like...I know it's got 4e cooties on it, but it's useful. Like it's legitimately one of the most useful, and more importantly SIMPLE, mechanics to come out of 4e. You'd think if they kept anything, it'd be that and the way 4e did critical hits, but nope! Stinks too much of 4e, can't be used.

2024 HAS the bloodied condition, right in the Players Handbook.

And there are monsters in the 2024 MM that use it (like the boar and flesh golem).

Edit: and there are feats and subclasses that use it too.

 

[Minigiant]

except that in the analogy being level 15 is not illegal… and depending on the country driving 80 mph is not either

It's more accurate that the car was designed for the city where it works fine at 25mph but wheels come off at 55mph because they forgot to test on the highway.

Things like boss monsters breakdown because mid and high level were not priorities of the old school crowd.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm not saying it's the ultimate solution.

My point is F/R/W 3 saves exacerbates the problem so much that returning to it would require a lot of changes to the base system.

There’s actually 2 ‘problems’

1. Monsters failing control saves too easily. Going to 3 saves should help monsters as however you combine them monsters will probably go up on the save. Definitely not down on it.

2. Players failing saves too easily. Combing saves means players still likely have at least 1 common weakness. As far as i can tell not much really changes here by going from 6 to 3.

 

[Eric V]

Which is completely unlike 5e, at least for literally 100% of games I've played. Even the actually good 5e GM I have does not disclose HP totals until it's of the form "agh, it has ONE hit point left!!" or the like.

Oh, for sure, D&D isn't like that at all...but maybe it should be if it had hp-thresholds for spells. Just to be clear, players in 13A don't know the hp totals of their enemies, just if their hp-dependent spells would work or not.

 

[Eric V]

The problem with this sort of design is, let's take Power Word: Kill.

1) If your DM tells you exactly how much HP a creature has left, then the moment a creature drops below 100, then if the situation is right to use that spell, 2) every player will just ignore said creature because they know the target will get dropped automatically because of Power Word: Kill.

If you give that information to a player, when the balancing factor of such spells in 5e is "it works if below X hp, otherwise it doesn't", then you've completely defeated the balancing factor.

1) They don't say exactly, only if the spell would work
2) Why is that a problem, exactly? They worked hard to weaken the enemy so that the wizard can finish it with their most powerful spell. That's GOT to be a better scenario than "Oops, sorry...had 3 too many hp for that spell to work. Too bad about the lost action and lost 9th level spell..."

 

[Minigiant]

There’s actually 2 ‘problems’

1. Monsters failing control saves too easily. Going to 3 saves should help monsters as however you combine them monsters will probably go up on the save. Definitely not down on it.

Monsters would go down because most monsters arent are CON, DEX, or WIS based.

You'd have to use 4E 3 saves were saving throws use the better of 2 stats.

2. Players failing saves too easily. Combing saves means players still likely have at least 1 common weakness. As far as i can tell not much really changes here by going from 6 to 3.

Only if WOTC gets PCs more than 1 of 3 good saves. Back in 3e, most classes had 2.

3 saves is not inherently worse but WOTC doesn't hire designers who are extremely focused on game balance.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

2024 HAS the bloodied condition, right in the Players Handbook.

And there are monsters in the 2024 MM that use it (like the boar and flesh golem).

Edit: and there are feats and subclasses that use it too.

You will note I said, "It still baffles me that they removed Bloodied from 5.0." (Emphasis added.) Had I meant all of 5e I would have said "5e". I honestly couldn't remember if they had added Bloodied back to 5.5e or not, but to hedge my bets I presumed they had and only mentioned 5.0 as a result.

 

[mamba]

It's more accurate that the car was designed for the city where it works fine at 25mph but wheels come off at 55mph because they forgot to test on the highway.

and you do not consider the wheels coming off on the highway a design flaw? What about not telling anyone that the car is only semi-safe in the city and closer to a deathtrap on highways?

Things like boss monsters breakdown because mid and high level were not priorities of the old school crowd.

It's not just boss monsters, high level play is the issue, the issue is at least as much on the character / spell side of things