Mike Mearls Talks (er, Tweets) About the Industry

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game.

So if you like boardgames, you got lots of different games to choose from. If you like RPGs, you got lots of games to choose from. But those games are the things GMs do with D&D. My campaign is my own game I've developed. Your campaign is yours.

I think there's a market for lots of different RPGs in that sense. Because each gaming group playing D&D is running its own unique game, in their own homebrew setting with their own house rules.

But I don't think there's a market for different *frameworks*. I think there's demand for *a* framework, that players use to develop lots of different games.

 

[Iosue]

[Promoted Thread] So Cam Banks asked this question on Twitter on June 18, setting off a string of interesting tweets by Mr. Mearls. Tweety caveats apply (limited characters, loss of nuance, etc.) I've ordered the posts by time as best I could, and sblocked tangents so that they don't interrupt the flow. But be sure to read them. Also, I used Mearls as my guiding star, so conversations generally end with him. However, there were other interesting posts by other folks that I haven't included here, so if you're interested, check out Mearls' Twitter feed, for June 18th, around 11 AM.


Cam Banks, 11:04
But the question is: is there a D&D 5e-sized market for a new SF RPG, whether it's Traveller or something else revisited?

Mike Mearls, 11:10
I don't believe out of the gate. I think an audience could be built, though.

Cam Banks, 11:11
I think so, too. I think we've seen sufficient market interest in other media that it's almost a no-brainer.

Mike Mearls, 11:11
challenge with RPGs is publishers go all in on one title, compared to how board game publishers manage their lines

Cam Banks, 11:12
Multiple lines with multiple support?

Mike Mearls, 11:12
I'd love to see an FFG of RPGs emerge, focusing on new games and following the hits with support.

Gurney Halleck, 11:13
I think the markets are very different due to the nature of the games themselves.

Mike Mearls, 11:13
yeah, with most titles core game and nothing else if they lack traction

Gurney Halleck, 11:13
To make that sustainable you would need a MONSTER hit of a core game.

Mike Mearls, 11:13
yeah, current RPG fans have a script that plays out badly for publishers

[sblock=Eurogame Tangent]
Gurney Halleck, 11:13
The Euro-stylegames created a new market. RPGs are an existing one, and that’s hard to alter.

Mike Mearls, 11:14
board game fans of 1995 (pre-Settlers) were much different beasts, different expectations than today...

Gurney Halleck, 11:15
The Euro-stylegames created a new market. RPGs are an existing one, and that’s hard to alter.

Mike Mearls, 11:16
in some ways, but I think Euros captured the old market + added all sorts of on ramps

Gurney Halleck, 11:18
Not sure I agree. SOME wargamers got carved off, and some mainstream players. But I think Settles built something.

Mike Mearls, 11:19
it established some new norms, and redefined what came before, says the guy who just ordered Heroes of Normandie[/sblock]
Rob Donoghue, 11:13
"support" means something pretty different.

Mike Mearls, 11:15
yeah, board games have such clear expansion paths - more players, expand card deck X to size Y, replace A with B

Mike Mearls, 11:15
RPG fans are like - publish another entire game worth of stuff that just adds complexity!

Rob Donoghue, 11:17
Yah. I think there's a lack of a real playbook for how to handle RPG success consistently. Many one offs.

[sblock=Supplements tangent]Dean Gilbert, 11:18
I'm starting to think that there isn't a very large market at all for supplementary material.

Mike Mearls, 11:21
it's tricky, and I think it looks much more like the board game expansion market than what RPGs have been[/sblock]
Cam Banks, 11:17
Many of us are experiment-minded at heart but feel bound by the past.

Mike Mearls, 11:18
no one has solved it, in terms of a business model. the biggest challenge of 5e will be years 3 - 5.

Rob Donoghue, 11:18
Curse of super thin margins, little time, and a tyrannical streak.

[sblock=Magazine Tangent]
Adam Jury, 11:18
Big problem is educating retailers about new things.

Mike Mearls, 11:19
and fans! We need a White Wolf magazine for the 21st century

Rob Donoghue, 11:20
Magazines unfortunately are facing the same uncertainty.

Cam Banks, 11:20 ‏
I'm looking at Dragon+ to see how that performs.

Mike Mearls, 11:21
it's funny, people get really loud and upset if they aren't getting stuff for the game they already play

Mike Mearls, 11:22
that's been very consistent across Dragon's lifespan[/sblock]
Mike Mearls, 11:20
yeah, the most expensive product I can do is an RPG book. board games have components, but dev time is way shorter

Jim McGarva, 1:14
Are you hoping to change that over at Wizards? To stop going all-in on D&D and branch out to multiple lines?

Mike Mearls, 2:41
we're pretty much the D&D company, and that works for us because D&D is also video games, board games, etc

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game.

But I don't think there's a market for different *frameworks*. I think there's demand for *a* framework, that players use to develop lots of different games.

I heard that theory back in the mid/late 80s, and really liked it. GURPS, for instance, was done on the idea that if you create a superior 'framework' like that which can be used for any genre or license, that groups will standardize on that, because that's what everyone really wants, one rule set they can use to play anyting - a 'Universal' system. You can tell by the way GURPS hasn't dominated the RPG industry for 30 years, and the way new games keep popping up, that it didn't work out that way. The industry got divided up into niches for a while, then kinda rallied around d20 not because it was a good 'framework' or universal system (it's a terrible one compared to BRP, d6, FUDGE, Hero, GURPS or Fuzion, among others), but because it was a way to grab D&D's name-recognition coattails. Now it's back to niche/indie games in the small pond with Big Fish D&D, only this time the minnows are financed by kickstarter.

 

[Mercule]

I heard that theory back in the mid/late 80s, and really liked it. GURPS, for instance, was done on the idea that if you create a superior 'framework' like that which can be used for any genre or license, that groups will standardize on that, because that's what everyone really wants, one rule set they can use to play anyting - a 'Universal' system. You can tell by the way GURPS hasn't dominated the RPG industry for 30 years, and the way new games keep popping up, that it didn't work out that way. The industry got divided up into niches for a while, then kinda rallied around d20 not because it was a good 'framework' or universal system (it's a terrible one compared to BRP, d6, FUDGE, Hero, GURPS or Fuzion, among others), but because it was a way to grab D&D's name-recognition coattails. Now it's back to niche/indie games in the small pond with Big Fish D&D, only this time the minnows are financed by kickstarter.

I wonder if FATE and Savage Worlds are the start of the "Settlers" movement they referenced. GURPS games always had the GURPS name first, followed by whatever the subtitle was. The Dresden Files game runs on FATE, but it's first and foremost a Dresden Files game.

Personally, I'd love to see how that worked out for the D&D "brand management" they keep talking about. Release a "Forgotten Realms" game that's completely self-contained, but also complete and unique. Don't bother with the base elves, but go right to sun elves. If it works, try it with Eberron. If people are intent on including the shifter race in their game, they can pull it from Eberron just like a FATE Core group could yoink the Dresden magic system.

In light of the other "Mearls Said..." thread about psionics, I wonder if this approach might even help, there. Eberron includes psionics, but isn't deeply invested in them. Maybe the Eberron game (not setting, game) includes a Sorcerer sub-class or something similar that fills the low-end niche for psionics. Psionics is integral to Dark Sun, though. That game would have a fully developed psionics system that could easily replace magic.

That model would provide a potential "evergreen" product for each setting. If one of them (Forgotten Realms) proves to be more popular, then it can have expansions for just it. Core D&D could also see some expansions or adventures, but those would only guarantee compatibility with the core. It would be a bit like Risk, where you can play vanilla Risk, or you can pull out Star Wars, Halo, or Godstorm. Hasbro could (though I don't think they have) release an expansion for, say, Godstorm. Actually, even if they massively revamped the base rules for Risk, it wouldn't impact the playability of Star Wars Risk one bit or beg for a conversion.

Just make sure you have the right thing above the fold, so to speak.

 

[jgsugden]

Fantasy is not a western. It has different needs and different focuses. As a result, designing a system that works well for westerns and for fantasy games means you can't service both setting's needs.

I LOVE GURPS for Space Settings, Westerns, Spy, and any other 'simulationist' setting where people don't go beyond human levels of performance. When I run a Western Campaign, I run 1990s era GURPS - Iand I have no desire to look for something better because it leaves so little room for improvement that the time spent learning a new system is not worthwhile..

However, I tried GURPS for Fantasy and found it to be far inferior to D&D and Pathfinder. It felt too constrained by reality and not heroic enough. When I tried it for a Super hero game, it was ridiculously bad.

In an ideal world, we'd see the industry come together and create three game systems and stabilize them - a simulationist system for 'realistic' scenarios (I like 1990s era GURPS), a fantasy system for games that introduce some non-realiastic components (D&D and Pathfinder are both excellent here), and a high fantasy setting that needs to be flexible enough to address the incredibly strange worlds of Marvel Comics, Manga, etc... (this would be a very thin rulebook with a lot of game master interpretation).

 

[Tony Vargas]

I wonder if FATE and Savage Worlds are the start of the "Settlers" movement they referenced.

Could be. They're certainly interesting in how different they are, mechanically, yet how similar in multi-genre approach.

Personally, I'd love to see how that worked out for the D&D "brand management" they keep talking about.
In light of the other "Mearls Said..." thread about psionics, I wonder if this approach might even help, there. Eberron includes psionics, but isn't deeply invested in them. Maybe the Eberron game (not setting, game) includes a Sorcerer sub-class or something similar that fills the low-end niche for psionics. Psionics is integral to Dark Sun, though. That game would have a fully developed psionics system that could easily replace magic.

That's an interesting possibility. I wonder if they'd go the same way they just did with PoA, and release the player options on free pdf?

Fantasy is not a western. It has different needs and different focuses. As a result, designing a system that works well for westerns and for fantasy games means you can't service both setting's needs.

I've had some experience with would-be 'universal' systems and with 'core systems,' and I can't agree. Heroic genres, for instance, tend to have a lot in common, it's the details - 'bits' or tropes or whatever you want to call them - that differ. In a western, there's a shoot-out with six-guns, in science-fiction, they're just ray-guns, in fantasy, it's a swordfight with spells flying around - but they all need to be exciting or at least interesting combats. Same goes for the available plots and the 'pillars' - in fantasy, you explore an old ruin, in westerns you're out in the badlands, in sci-fi it's an alien planet - in all cases, you're exploring a dangerous locale.

Hero System seemed to work remarkably well for any genre I ever ran or played it in - that included Supers (obviously), espionage, western, fantasy, science-fiction, science-fantasy, WWII historical, anime, and even horror. If a single 'framework' system were the holy grail of RPGs, Hero'd've been it. I've played Hero exactly twice since I wrapped my last Champions! campaign in 2008. :shrug:

 

[Remathilis]

I am REALLY thinking Mearls and co are trying to tell us "don't expect more than APs" in terms of RPG books. Despite cries for supplements, additional rulesets, campaign settings, and the like, I am really thinking we aren't getting more than Two Forgotten Realms APs per year" as TTRPG support.

 

[Mercurius]

We need a dedicated forum for Mearls tweets.

 

[Mercule]

Fantasy is not a western. It has different needs and different focuses. As a result, designing a system that works well for westerns and for fantasy games means you can't service both setting's needs.

Heroic genres, for instance, tend to have a lot in common

I think these two ideas go well with one another. There're more than one aspect to a game/genre/whatever. Asimov's work is very different from Star Trek, but both could be called science-fiction. I wouldn't want to use the same rules (probably). Fantasy, itself, is split into high fantasy, swords and sorcery, mythic fantasy, and scads of others that can look and feel very different. GURPS is known for being fairly "hard", so I would expect it to be a bit rougher for groups trying to do epic fantasy -- though it might work for swords and sorcery. Westerns are pretty straight-forward, so no worries, there.

What I'm saying, is that the difference isn't so much that a single system can't cross multiple genres, it's that they all have characteristics they bring to the table. My group won't do Savage Worlds because they love the truckload of individual spells found in D&D, rather than the generalization of the SW core spells. That's just a reason why there's room for multiple core systems on the market.

Hero System seemed to work remarkably well for any genre I ever ran or played it in - that included Supers (obviously), espionage, western, fantasy, science-fiction, science-fantasy, WWII historical, anime, and even horror. If a single 'framework' system were the holy grail of RPGs, Hero'd've been it. I've played Hero exactly twice since I wrapped my last Champions! campaign in 2008. :shrug:

Hero is one of my personal favorites because it's so flexible. Given enough effort, the core rules will do just about anything and support just about any genre. The key, there, is "enough effort", and I think it's why Hero has never been a break out success. It was fantastic during college, but is just unreasonable with four kids, a full-time plus job, and other activities. But, if I was given Eberron as adapted to Hero, with a large sampling of races, spells, psionic powers, etc. all included, I'd be very warm to it. That would give me everything I needed, plus a framework from which to draw to fill in group-specific gaps.

Hero is actually something of an oddity in that it's almost too abstract. Even something like Fantasy Hero could stand to be a bit more opinionated.

 

[Mercurius]

I am REALLY thinking Mearls and co are trying to tell us "don't expect more than APs" in terms of RPG books. Despite cries for supplements, additional rulesets, campaign settings, and the like, I am really thinking we aren't getting more than Two Forgotten Realms APs per year" as TTRPG support.

Not necessarily. I think he isn't entirely sure what they're going to do, as evidenced by this comment: "no one has solved it, in terms of a business model. the biggest challenge of 5e will be years 3 - 5."

This makes me think they have years 1-2 planned, with the core and several story arcs, but after that they're not sure what to do. Maybe the "psionics fishing" was for a story arc, or maybe they're thinking of a "psionics expansion set."

Actually, maybe he left a hint as to how they are going to handle things - something akin to expansion sets, but for RPGs.