Min/max tricks of the players

[Lord Vangarel]

While I wouldn't exactly say my players are munchkins in the sense it is used on the boards they do tend to min/max somewhat. This got me thinking what other players do. My group sees it as simply making the best choices for the characters. For example, in the real world you wouldn't learn a skill that could earn you $10 an hour if you could learn a skill that earns $50 an hour would you?

To get us started, and as an example, here is a few of ways my players make the best possible choices.

Wizards - choosing a toad as a familiar, this adds +2 to Con giving a +1 hp bonus per character level!!!

Wizards - summon monster, analyse the best combat ability monster for each spell and always summon that monster type.

Fighters - fight with two bastard swords in a twin weapon style.


Also from the DM's perspective do you allow it to continue or do you attempt to find alternatives or change the rules? Now my players know the best monster to summon for each spell does every spellcaster always summon that monster?

 

[Frosty]

I don't think it's munchkin to pick the best skills for your character. Adventurers fight monsters on a daily basis so it's only natural that they put some thought into the selection of their tools. Just like your average golfer, I might add.

If it's allowed you should pick it. In our game you wouldn't fight with two bastard swords though. It seems ridiculous so a heavy penalty is suitable for any character who tries it. My group thinks that the spiked chain is a phony weapon and neither of us would be caught dead with one. In fact we laughed at an NPC that used one. When he died the last thing he heard was "You are no *real* munchkin! You can't even survive a melee". He had forgot to pick Combat Reflexes, lol.

I usually summon monsters suitable for the task. If it's sheer fighting power I'm after I chose an elemental and if it's healing I need I summon celestials. Go figure. Some monsters can be summoned for answers, it's truly a versatile spell.

 

[LostSoul]

If your wizard says that he loves birds and comes from the desert, then writes down "toad" for his familiar because of the +4 Con bonus, then he's a munchkin. ("+4? Are you sure that isn't +2?" "Oh yeah, I must have had it wrong for the past 5 levels. I'll change it now.")

Don't change the rules on them, though... that's DM munchkin stuff. Maybe you can offer "cool" features if the PCs do things differently.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

LostSoul, what sort of cool things would you offer to make the less attractive choice seem attractive?

I've thought about making the Summon Monster spell random like it used to be in previous editions. Summon Familiar could also be random, I'm sure it used to be back in the 1E.

I agree, two bastard swords is ridiculous, but they are medium weapons and it's not breaking any rules so why shouldn't the players choose it, what's better, a longsword and dagger or two bastard swords for damage each round?

 

[Frosty]

I've thought about making the Summon Monster spell random like it used to be in previous editions. Summon Familiar could also be random, I'm sure it used to be back in the 1E.

I agree, two bastard swords is ridiculous, but they are medium weapons and it's not breaking any rules so why shouldn't the players choose it, what's better, a longsword and dagger or two bastard swords for damage each round?

If two bastard swords are beneficial all fighters are gonna want to have it. If so the ridiculousness of the combination will taint the entire game. I won't let that happen. Rule 0.

About random monsters. It's been one of the fundamentals of d20 that you can pick whatever you like. Dice shouldn't affect your choices. Not even stats are supposed to be rolled. NPC are usually created with the the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8) with 4hp per level.

 

[FireLance]

I agree, two bastard swords is ridiculous, but they are medium weapons and it's not breaking any rules so why shouldn't the players choose it, what's better, a longsword and dagger or two bastard swords for damage each round?

Assuming the character already has Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting, longsword + dagger gives a -2 to all attacks. Attacking with two longswords gives a -4 to to all attacks. Attacking with two bastard swords also gives a -4 to all attacks, and requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). If the player wants to burn a feat that way, I'd let them do it.

Real munchkins take Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Improved Critical (Short Sword) and find two Sun Blades.

 

[Al]

Well, for one, I would never take a toad familiar. Woohoo, you get +1hp per level, but sacrifice a very useful class ability. I'd normally take a raven- they can be sent as messengers to talk to people and can deliver touch attacks pretty effectively (effectively enabling you to deliver touch spells at a distance). Toads make give a Con bonus, but they can't do *anything* else.

Two bastard swords is also a no-no: at a -4 to attacks (assuming you have Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency), who would bother. Your likely excess damage is only going to be d10+(half Str)+(other mods). You may as well simply take Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation and Power Attack. These three combined give you effective +7 damage on ALL attacks, assuming you PA to give the same to hit as double-bastard sword man- and you can use it with a charge or single attack action. Since you multiply strength damage by 1.5 for two-handed weapons, this deals with the half Str added to the off-hand attacks, so a twin +2 bastard swords are needed to catch up on damage capacity: by which level you doubtlessly have iterative attacks, all which gain the +7.
Twin bastard sword man just isn't effective (in fact, with Power Attack, your even better off with Longsword and Shortsword: +2 damage to both weapons to balance the additional +2 to hit for wielding a light weapon and you've actually got 1 point more damage: d6+2 is equal to d10, d8+2 is better. Furthermore, you haven't spent any more feats as you needn't get EWP).

Be warned of falling into the common trap: what may appear to be munchkin or uber turns out to be not so. For real powergaming, just look at Sultans of Smack.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Where is this Sultans of Smack?

 

[nsruf]

While I wouldn't exactly say my players are munchkins in the sense it is used on the boards they do tend to min/max somewhat. This got me thinking what other players do.

Most people I game with do that to some extent and I am no exception myself. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that, after all, you are playing the heroes - being ineffectual doesn't help here... The problem with "munchkinism" starts when people do illogical, stupid or obnoxious things because the rules give them bonuses.

My group sees it as simply making the best choices for the characters. For example, in the real world you wouldn't learn a skill that could earn you $10 an hour if you could learn a skill that earns $50 an hour would you?

Until their survival suddenly depends on it

To get us started, and as an example, here is a few of ways my players make the best possible choices.

Wizards - choosing a toad as a familiar, this adds +2 to Con giving a +1 hp bonus per character level!!!

But a toad can do nothing else! And I am not even sure if familiars are so great. The problem is, they tend to be forgotten - so if the party gets hit by a fireball, they don't take damage, etc. (happened in a game I play in). If you treat familiars only as a bonus and not as a creature that may be inconvenient to take everywhere, they may be overpowered.

Wizards - summon monster, analyse the best combat ability monster for each spell and always summon that monster type.

Is there really a "best" monster in each category? IMO, this depends on the situation. So don't let the players look in the MM or consider the pros and cons of different choices for minutes while they are in combat.

Fighters - fight with two bastard swords in a twin weapon style.

This costs a lot of feats to use effectively and you can't use a shield to up AC. I think this is already balanced by the rules. And I don't allow the PCs to take huge swords everywhere (cities are usually off limits), so too bad if they have spent all their feats on a single weapon...

Also from the DM's perspective do you allow it to continue or do you attempt to find alternatives or change the rules? Now my players know the best monster to summon for each spell does every spellcaster always summon that monster?

I tell them when I think their choices are silly. So far, no other actions have been necessary But I can see myself creating an adventure specifically to expose the "flaws" in their reasoning, if all else fails.

 

[Xarlen]

I Have to agree.

Using the summon spell to pick the monster appropriate for the situation seems... the purpose of the spell. Choosing creatures to grapple, poison, fly, etc, that's what the spell is ment to Do. Otherwise, you wouldn't be using it except to create cannon fodder. If I'm going to summon an Air elemental, I'm going to have it use that whirlwind to disperse large groups and whatnot.

It's like saying it's munchkin to use a fireball to blast the crap out've a room full of baddies, or use a Rope Trick to recooperate the party.

As to the toad familiar, yes, that gives you extra HPs and a +1 to your fort save. However, think of the other options that familiars give:

Bat, which uses Blindsight, that can detect invisible beings, see through illusions, and report this to the spellcaster (This can get aggrivating).
Raven, who can speak, fly, perch and watch, and do effective touch spells.
Etc.

Really, that toad is kind've useless; it can't attack. The only way you're going to deliver spells through it is THROW it at someone (I can see a dwarf doing this, or using a Hedgehog the same way). In 2e, the only thing you got from a Toad was 'wide eyed vision' which did Nothing, so they gave the toad a +2.

Edit: For the record, the illusionist in my party has a bat. And, even though the little thing has gotten Very annoying by spotting hidden, invisible, darknessed, etc enemies, and used as a watchdog, it's fair. That, and the player does a lot of RP with his familiar; he feeds it, so forth.