Min/max tricks of the players

[Lord Vangarel]

The problem I have with Summon Monster is that the player downloaded the compiled info and then looked at each monster for each spell and now only summons the monster with the best AC/Attacks/Damage ratio. This means that the same monster turns up all the time. He's soon going up th 7th level and will get Summon Monster IV and then it will all start over. This is more down to the fact that all summoned monsters of the same spell level are not equal.

As for the familiar it generally stays hidden away within his robes in a box and ends up giving the character an extra 1hp/level. The player has already set his character up with a great Con so the toad just boosts it and what do you know we have a wizard with more hit points than the fighter with an average Constitution of the same level.

It all just makes me wonder, are the players just making the right choices or are they min/maxing at the expense of character?

 

[Schmoe]

The problem I have with Summon Monster is that the player downloaded the compiled info and then looked at each monster for each spell and now only summons the monster with the best AC/Attacks/Damage ratio. This means that the same monster turns up all the time. He's soon going up th 7th level and will get Summon Monster IV and then it will all start over. This is more down to the fact that all summoned monsters of the same spell level are not equal.

The only thing this demonstrates is a lack of creativity on the part of the player. There is nothing wrong or "munchkin" or "min/max" about this approach, it's simply lacking creativity. Remember, the spell was designed to provide options. The player is simply choosing to ignore the rest of the (very useful) options.

As for the familiar it generally stays hidden away within his robes in a box and ends up giving the character an extra 1hp/level. The player has already set his character up with a great Con so the toad just boosts it and what do you know we have a wizard with more hit points than the fighter with an average Constitution of the same level.

Again, not a problem, simply a lack of creativity. The wizard is giving up a lot of other options to get that extra 1 hp/level. Flexibility is also a strength.

It all just makes me wonder, are the players just making the right choices or are they min/maxing at the expense of character?

It seems to me like the players are having difficulty seeing beyond the numbers on their character sheets. The only way to get them to think out of the box is to present encounters that require creative solutions. If your game consists of "1) Open the door. 2) Smash. 3) Loot. 4) Repeat" then don't expect the players to change their perceptions. There's nothing wrong with that sort of game, I personally find it to be a lot of fun, but it does not encourage player creativity.

 

[Frosty]

It all just makes me wonder, are the players just making the right choices or are they min/maxing at the expense of character?

There's not anything ineherently wrong with your friend's wizard character. It might of course be a wee bit more interesting. The toad-in-a-box trick is so common that I expect it to become a staple of fantasy. A wizard is an old bearded man with an oaken staff, flowing robes and a toad in a box.
In any event by making his wizard tough as nails he probably has some other weakness such as a poor Will-save.

"Hi" says the boy.
"Uh um. Hello son" the wizard replied.
"Do you have a toad? I have one... His name is Evil!"
"No, I don't have a toad. Go away!"
*Bibble*
"Hush, Satan, hush." the wizard whispered as the boy disappeared around the corner.

Having a toad might have a great influence on your character.

If you want the next wizard to pick a different familiar just boost one you'd rather see. If you want more hawks make hawks kick some.

 

[hong]

The problem I have with Summon Monster is that the player downloaded the compiled info and then looked at each monster for each spell and now only summons the monster with the best AC/Attacks/Damage ratio. This means that the same monster turns up all the time. He's soon going up th 7th level and will get Summon Monster IV and then it will all start over. This is more down to the fact that all summoned monsters of the same spell level are not equal.

As for the familiar it generally stays hidden away within his robes in a box and ends up giving the character an extra 1hp/level. The player has already set his character up with a great Con so the toad just boosts it and what do you know we have a wizard with more hit points than the fighter with an average Constitution of the same level.

It all just makes me wonder, are the players just making the right choices or are they min/maxing at the expense of character?

It means your players are taking your game seriously enough that they're willing to do their homework outside gaming hours. This is a Good Thing, and better than someone who turns up just because he isn't doing anything else that night, and proceeds to doze through half the session.

If their preparation strikes you as excessive, tell them to loosen up a little. Also, it could mean that your encounters are becoming too predictable if they know what is the "best" monster to summon. Throw in a few underwater encounters, or ones in cramped confines, or ones against flying creatures, and see how they react when they're outside their comfort zone.

Above all, your players' characters are just that: your players', not yours. It would not be good to try to tell them how to play their characters.

 

[bwgwl]

As for the familiar it generally stays hidden away within his robes in a box and ends up giving the character an extra 1hp/level.

the familiar is trapped in a box inside his robes? how does the poor thing breathe? would be a real shame if poor Mr. Toad suffocated in there...

how does the toad feel about being locked up in a little box all day with no light, food, water, or fresh air?

i think you need to send the SPCF (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Familiars) after this wizard...

 

[KDLadage]

While I wouldn't exactly say my players are munchkins in the sense it is used on the boards they do tend to min/max somewhat. This got me thinking what other players do. My group sees it as simply making the best choices for the characters. For example, in the real world you wouldn't learn a skill that could earn you $10 an hour if you could learn a skill that earns $50 an hour would you?

How much money has your Knowledge(RPGs) skill earned you? We, as human beings, have a whole host of skills and capabilities that are tno the "best" choices we could have made. But they make us who we are, and they offer depth.

To get us started, and as an example, here is a few of ways my players make the best possible choices.

Wizards - choosing a toad as a familiar, this adds +2 to Con giving a +1 hp bonus per character level!!!

This is one of the many reasons I re-wrote the familliar rules for UMBRAGIA...

Wizards - summon monster, analyse the best combat ability monster for each spell and always summon that monster type.

OK...

Fighters - fight with two bastard swords in a twin weapon style.

Uh... yea.

Also from the DM's perspective do you allow it to continue or do you attempt to find alternatives or change the rules? Now my players know the best monster to summon for each spell does every spellcaster always summon that monster?

Design an encounter where the combat capabilities of the creature they summon are minimized, but other capabilities are maximized...

 

[Jeremy]

Where is this Sultans of Smack?

Why right here of course. Sultans of Smack

You've really never seen/heard of this thread?

I need to do some PR work... Or find Carpe and get him back to work. CEO's today, they come in once a week, axe 100 people who work harder than the CEO does, then go get some golf.

 

[Xarlen]

I'm sure his locked up Toad is going to be rather angry and start peeing in the box.

If he continues to treat it badly, why not have the toad comit Reptilcide on itself, since it's life is so confined and it has nothing to live for, for it is not appreciated.

 

[alsih2o]

i think what a lot of folks here a re trying to say is this: munchkin-ing or powergaming can largely be a perception.

my sorcerer got a rat as a familiar(specifically a kangaroo rat) because after a ceratin lvl, it can talk with animals of its kind...ever been someplace without rats or mice?

if your players are taking advantage of the world, change their perceptions of what is important....

 

[Kestrel]

My wizard had a toad. He kept it in his robes most of the time and pet it constantly. He also has a small container of flies that he fed it. The funny thing is whenever my wizzie cast poly self, my toad would jump out of my robes, polymorph into a naked halfling and sit around eating flies. Freaked out the apprentices