Min/Maxed Sorcerer questions
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Sollir Furryfoot
Explorer
My suggestion is as soon as you hit level 6, find a PrC to take for the next 4 levels (Elemental savant, Incantrix, or what not), then take 1 level or more of contemplative (Education or Cosmopoliton feat from FRCS to gain Knowledge: Religion as a class skill if your DM won't let you swap out a skill for it), gaining the domain Mysticism to boost all your saves by your charisma bonus (at this level up to around +7 to all saves) as well as get good spells like Divine Favor, Weapon of the Deity, and the Aspect of the Deity line which also boosts your charisma more.
How to min/max a Sorceror is easy.
For "best" race, Human if you need the bonus feat, Half-Elf otherwise, IMO. NEVER a race with a Charisma PENALTY; such make playable Sorcerors, even FUN ones, but ... they aren't min/max'd sorcerors.
Plan out your feat chain to 20th level, at the very absolute least -- and do so BEFORE picking any spells at all. That way, if you plan on gettign a lot of the Elemental Substitution metamagics, you know to heavily favor the Elemental-tagged spells, even where they might be slightly inferior to other choices at the same level. I stongly suggest at least one Elemental Substitution magic; you can get this at 3d level, 1st level if you are human.
Then, plan out your spell selection as though you were a Sorceror of 20th level. Yes, every last spell. At each level, look for spells that will be servicable for the longest possible period of time; spells who will not lose all their true usefulness. This sometimes means NOT taking the "best" spell for (say) a first-level spellcaster, "sleep" -- leave that to the wizard, HE can abandon spells later in his career.
As for the best actual spread of spells -- it depends on your planned tactics. If you plan on being a one-man artillery batallion ... go for the elemental damage spells, and pick up a couple (maybe all FIVE) of the elemental Substitution metamagics.
That's how to do a straight sorceror.
If you think you would like to also have a prestige class, well, PLAN FOR IT, right from first level. Plan those feat chains ccordingly. Figure out what level caster you will be able to reach, plan your spells as a spellcaster OF that level, facing 20th level adventures.
As with any class, feats and skills planned to gain entry at "the right time" (which isn't always "ASAP") to the prestige class(es) of your choice.
Unlike other classes, put even MORE care into planning your SPELLS at the highest level you expect to attain; then you have a short "crib note" list of spells to pick from at each intervening level-up.
For "best" race, Human if you need the bonus feat, Half-Elf otherwise, IMO. NEVER a race with a Charisma PENALTY; such make playable Sorcerors, even FUN ones, but ... they aren't min/max'd sorcerors.
Plan out your feat chain to 20th level, at the very absolute least -- and do so BEFORE picking any spells at all. That way, if you plan on gettign a lot of the Elemental Substitution metamagics, you know to heavily favor the Elemental-tagged spells, even where they might be slightly inferior to other choices at the same level. I stongly suggest at least one Elemental Substitution magic; you can get this at 3d level, 1st level if you are human.
Then, plan out your spell selection as though you were a Sorceror of 20th level. Yes, every last spell. At each level, look for spells that will be servicable for the longest possible period of time; spells who will not lose all their true usefulness. This sometimes means NOT taking the "best" spell for (say) a first-level spellcaster, "sleep" -- leave that to the wizard, HE can abandon spells later in his career.
As for the best actual spread of spells -- it depends on your planned tactics. If you plan on being a one-man artillery batallion ... go for the elemental damage spells, and pick up a couple (maybe all FIVE) of the elemental Substitution metamagics.
That's how to do a straight sorceror.
If you think you would like to also have a prestige class, well, PLAN FOR IT, right from first level. Plan those feat chains ccordingly. Figure out what level caster you will be able to reach, plan your spells as a spellcaster OF that level, facing 20th level adventures.
As with any class, feats and skills planned to gain entry at "the right time" (which isn't always "ASAP") to the prestige class(es) of your choice.
Unlike other classes, put even MORE care into planning your SPELLS at the highest level you expect to attain; then you have a short "crib note" list of spells to pick from at each intervening level-up.
WattsHumphrey
First Post
Sollir Furryfoot said:
I have a bit of a question about this. I was planning to take a sorcerer with levels of contemplative, and looking at the contemplative progression table, it looks GREAT! the problem is... that according to the description of their spells, it appears to imply that you gain only divine spellcasting ability. I don't have the book on me so I can't quote it, but look at the description for yourself. Does this actually work?
James McMurray
First Post
That is true. The Contemplative's spellcasting progression only applies to divine classes. I was thinking of taking some levels with my Sorcerer as well, since he is extremely religiously oriented. Heck, he even call his Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion "Heironious' Guest House."
Note thtough, that if you weren't previously a divine caster, you gain casting like a cleric. So a Sorcerer 12 / Contemplative 3 could cast spells as a 3rd level cleric. That might actually be worth it. You lose a level of sorcerer spellcasting but gain some minor healing and a prestige domain. You don't get two base domains for being a cleric though.
I remember seeing somewhere that sorcerers who somehow gain access to a domain add those spells to their sorcerer spells known, does anybody have a source for that, or is it just a fevered imagining?
Note thtough, that if you weren't previously a divine caster, you gain casting like a cleric. So a Sorcerer 12 / Contemplative 3 could cast spells as a 3rd level cleric. That might actually be worth it. You lose a level of sorcerer spellcasting but gain some minor healing and a prestige domain. You don't get two base domains for being a cleric though.
I remember seeing somewhere that sorcerers who somehow gain access to a domain add those spells to their sorcerer spells known, does anybody have a source for that, or is it just a fevered imagining?
You can go many ways with PrCs, and sorcerers only lose familiar progression so it's almost always a good idea for them. Examples:
- Divine Oracle and Sacred Exorcist give domain spells known
- Incantatrix gives Improved Metamagic, Instant Metamagic and metamagic feats
- Arcane Trickster gives sneak attack damage
- Paladin (and possibly Contemplative) gives Divine Grace
- Archmage gives Spell Power, (instant!) Elemental Substitution, Shape Spell
- Arcane Devotee and War Wizard give free use of Enlarge and Widen Spell (iirc)
...notice how few PrCs from T&B I mentioned?
Which spells to choose? The spells you choose should
- be what you need to survive
- be versatile
- remain useful
I like the idea of a Paladin1/Sorcerer6/DivineOracle/ArcaneDevotee/SacredExorcist/Archmage
- Divine Oracle and Sacred Exorcist give domain spells known
- Incantatrix gives Improved Metamagic, Instant Metamagic and metamagic feats
- Arcane Trickster gives sneak attack damage
- Paladin (and possibly Contemplative) gives Divine Grace
- Archmage gives Spell Power, (instant!) Elemental Substitution, Shape Spell
- Arcane Devotee and War Wizard give free use of Enlarge and Widen Spell (iirc)
...notice how few PrCs from T&B I mentioned?
Which spells to choose? The spells you choose should
- be what you need to survive
- be versatile
- remain useful
I like the idea of a Paladin1/Sorcerer6/DivineOracle/ArcaneDevotee/SacredExorcist/Archmage
Jens said:
Further suggestions, from Magic of Faerun
- War Wizard of Cormyr
... despite the name, Sorcerors are welcome to take this prestige class. And one of the key benefits -- no-preparation / no-extended-casting Widen Spell metamagics -- is keyed to Charisma; you can use that ability a numbr of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier. At 5 levels, it's a fast-track prestige class focussed on pumping damage out over huge areas. No spellcaster levels are lost, and at the top level, all uses of Widen Spell (wether part of the free uses, or fully paid for) are DOUBLED for benefits, in other words, Areas are increased by 100% per application (and remember you can stack them; I've put together a conjectural Sorceror(15)-WWoC(5) with a functional 34 Charisma (+6 cloak, +5 tome, +5 level, 18 starting value, Spellcasting Prodigy(sorceror)). That's a +12 Charisma bonus for spellcasting purposes, so, 13 times per day he can Widen a spell for free.
All thirteen could beused at once, for a 1300% increase in area -- he could drop a single fireball 280 feet in radius, 560 feet in diameter -- over a tenth of a mile from one side to the other. As a standard action. *grin*
- Spelldancer
- Mage Killer
... the narrower selection of spells a Sorceror gets is *not* an automatic hindrance to someone specialised in killing Wizards ...
- Harper Mage
... they do with Extend Spell, what the WWoC does with Widen Spell ... also keyed to Charisma, so especially powerful for Sorcerors and Bards.
In fact, a Sorceror(10)-WWoC(5)-HarperMage(5) is a particularly cheesy-seeming (on the surface) combination; worth looking into, if min/max-ingis truly what you want/need.
Last edited:
Pick the kind of sorcerer you want to be.
It is easy to see the walking artillery platform, and that is how too many people play the sorcerer.
But, no matter what type of sorcerer you choose it would be best if you "theme" your sorcerer. For example, although specializing like wizards is not possible, choosing evokation and focusing one those DCs is a possibility. Another is to focus on ray spells, ranged touch attacks are not that hard to make, and with a halfling sorcerer you get an extra leg up.
Select all your spells you will ever choose before you start play. This has osme consequences.
First, you need to know all the source books for possible spells. Having the DM introduce Relics and Rituals after you decided on lightning bolt might throw a wrench into your plans.
Second, get all the erratta for all the spells. Specifically, get the correct version of polymorph before you decide if you are going to take it.
Third, find out how available other magic items (esp. scrolls) are in your game world. If you can pick up scads of scrolls then you spell choice is relaxed somewhat.
Fourth, know any other house rules that impact spell usage. In worlds without teleport, PHANTOM STEED is an uber spell.
Fifth, know your role. If you are a loner sorcerer then you will need a different selection of spells than the one-of-four party sorcerers would have.
Sixth, chosse your metamagic wisely, and often.
Seventh, plan some (not necessarily all) the magic items you want to have. If you are going to pick up bracers of armor then your mage armoer spell would be not so useful. If you think you will eventually work toward bracers of AC then do not pick up mage armor as a spell, and choose to cast in leather armor (yes I know the penalties). Remember that True Strike has no somatic component and a cross bow isyour best friend at low levels. Another example, fly is a great spell but if you have the right item it isnot so great any more, same with haste.
Eighth, keep your sorcerer mobile. Jump (or better yet - a ring of jumping), fly, haste, dimention door, teleport are all your friends.
Ninth, use your familiar -- so plan on getting a good one. Tome and Blood has the improved familiar feat -- pseudodragons rock!. Delivering touch attacks, scouting ahead, alertness, etc. are all things that will aid in your survival.
Whew, I did not know I had that much to say.
g!
It is easy to see the walking artillery platform, and that is how too many people play the sorcerer.
But, no matter what type of sorcerer you choose it would be best if you "theme" your sorcerer. For example, although specializing like wizards is not possible, choosing evokation and focusing one those DCs is a possibility. Another is to focus on ray spells, ranged touch attacks are not that hard to make, and with a halfling sorcerer you get an extra leg up.
Select all your spells you will ever choose before you start play. This has osme consequences.
First, you need to know all the source books for possible spells. Having the DM introduce Relics and Rituals after you decided on lightning bolt might throw a wrench into your plans.
Second, get all the erratta for all the spells. Specifically, get the correct version of polymorph before you decide if you are going to take it.
Third, find out how available other magic items (esp. scrolls) are in your game world. If you can pick up scads of scrolls then you spell choice is relaxed somewhat.
Fourth, know any other house rules that impact spell usage. In worlds without teleport, PHANTOM STEED is an uber spell.
Fifth, know your role. If you are a loner sorcerer then you will need a different selection of spells than the one-of-four party sorcerers would have.
Sixth, chosse your metamagic wisely, and often.
Seventh, plan some (not necessarily all) the magic items you want to have. If you are going to pick up bracers of armor then your mage armoer spell would be not so useful. If you think you will eventually work toward bracers of AC then do not pick up mage armor as a spell, and choose to cast in leather armor (yes I know the penalties). Remember that True Strike has no somatic component and a cross bow isyour best friend at low levels. Another example, fly is a great spell but if you have the right item it isnot so great any more, same with haste.
Eighth, keep your sorcerer mobile. Jump (or better yet - a ring of jumping), fly, haste, dimention door, teleport are all your friends.
Ninth, use your familiar -- so plan on getting a good one. Tome and Blood has the improved familiar feat -- pseudodragons rock!. Delivering touch attacks, scouting ahead, alertness, etc. are all things that will aid in your survival.
Whew, I did not know I had that much to say.
g!
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