Mind blank vs. see invisibility/true seeing

[kreynolds]

I would just like to go on the record as saying, "I think Mind Blank is a terribly designed, poorly thought out, and horribly worded excuse for a spell. I will not support Mind Blank in its current form in any way. Once I have redisgned the description (i.e. reworded) Mind Blank I will allow it in my games. As the spell stands now, someone should feel awefully embarrased for letting this page filler of a spell to get released in an official WotC product. Obviously, the game designers had no intentions of the spell beign that powerful. And even if they did intend it to be that powerful, someone had their head up (somehwere it didn't belong). I think it all comes down to a poorly worded spell description. Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Ristamar]

I'd still like to see a comprehensive Mind Blank core rules spell list... maybe I'll start pestering Skip.

 

[Pielorinho]

Yes, they are.

But, the problem is that if you take the absolute micro view, then there are "workarounds".

I cannot detect his thoughts. Ok, I use Detect Magic and detect his Mind Blank spell.

Err.

I cannot scry him. Ok, I scry his famous sword.

To me, this is a waste of the protective quality of the spell.

Well, the scrying the sword trick is definitely out -- D&D consistently considers equipment to be part of the character that's equiping it, so the enchantment (excuse me, Sean Reynolds -- the spell ) covers the equipment.

As for spells, though, I'm not sure that D&D considers spells to be part of the character on whom they're cast. In some cases I can think of, they would be: an invisible, change selfed person wouldn't have a visible disguise. But in some cases they wouldn't be: a dispel magic can target an individual or a spell, even if the spell is on an individual.

I'd be surprised if mind blank doesn't cover its own tracks: that is, it makes sense for the spell itself not to be detectable. In fact, I could easily rule that the fact that Bubba is under a mind blank spell is information about Bubba that isn't detectable by detect magic.

However, true seeing, as I see it, makes the caster immune to illusions, allowing them to gain exactly the information their eyes should be gaining, no more and no less. It's not the spell that learns information about the mind-blanked invisible Bubba; it's the true seeing-caster's eyes that gains the information, now that the illusions aren't preventing the eyes from doing their work.

I'm not sure this interpretation holds up -- does it imply that invisibility is a mind-affecting power? If so, I know a game designer that'll jump all over me for suggesting that. But it may not imply that: it may simply imply that iluusions are always magical in nature and come to the eye in an inevitably magical form, and that true seeing can block these magical images while allowing nonmagical images.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

However, true seeing, as I see it, makes the caster immune to illusions, allowing them to gain exactly the information their eyes should be gaining, no more and no less. It's not the spell that learns information about the mind-blanked invisible Bubba; it's the true seeing-caster's eyes that gains the information, now that the illusions aren't preventing the eyes from doing their work.

I'm not sure this interpretation holds up -- does it imply that invisibility is a mind-affecting power? If so, I know a game designer that'll jump all over me for suggesting that. But it may not imply that: it may simply imply that iluusions are always magical in nature and come to the eye in an inevitably magical form, and that true seeing can block these magical images while allowing nonmagical images.

I think that True Seeing MUST discern information about the target.

For example, it states that you see the true form of a Polymorphed creature.

When you are polymorphed (Polymorph Other for example), you ARE that creature. You have all of the properties of that creature (height, weight, scent, etc.).

So, True Seeing msut divine information about you to show the recepient the true form of the polymorphed creature.

The same can be said for invisibility. Invisibility does not affect the mind. It allows light to effectively pass through a creature as if it were totally transparent. To divine the creatures location, you must be detecting information about either the creature or its invisibility spell itself.

I think the broad definition of "any divination that affects the target in any way" is the only way to not run into problems with every other divination spell.

 

[IceBear]

I think the broad definition of "any divination that affects the target in any way" is the only way to not run into problems with every other divination spell.

Agreed. I think we are just trying to rationalize a way for True Sight to still work against Mind Blank to keep Mind Blank from being too much of an uber spell because then, at least, it could be partially countered by something

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

For example, it states that you see the true form of a Polymorphed creature.

Hmm...that's a good point. I forgot about the Polymorph thing.

Viscerally, I want true seeing to work here. But I think that ruleswise, it probably shouldn't. So I may have to houserule it, that true seeing renders all illusions useless, but that its additional powers (seeing auras, seeing shapeshifted creature's true forms, etc.) are blocked through mind blank and similar spells.

That's way too clunky for an official rule, or even for an argument for one. But it satisfies how I want it to work.

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

Wow - we seem to be constantly on the same wavelength

I might even go so far as to allow True Seeing to completely counter Mind Blank's effects (just to allow some recourse when attacked by a flying, improved invisibilty, mind blanked wizard).

But....I'll have to think on that.

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

Wow - we seem to be constantly on the same wavelength

IceBear

Seems so. If you're ever in North Carolina, I got a pickup game just waiting for you!

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I do not think that all of the effects of True Seeing are necessarily in affecting those he sees. He could be construed as having better senses.

If a color blind kobold cast See Color on himself, would he see the Mind Blanked Saruman of the Many Colors as colorful or in black & white?

If I have a divination spell that gives me the Alertness feat, does it not work against a Mind Blanked person? Is my hearing less sharp when it comes to his footsteps?

If I had a divination spell that explicitly makes a character "completely and totally immune to all illusions" what happens when the Mind Blanked Invisible mage walks by? Is the divination spell gathering information or simply making the illusion ineffective?

If you take the extreme view that all divinations completely and totally fail to help gather any information in any form whatsoever, then logically anyone with True Seeing would never be able to see a Mind Blanked person at all, whether invisible or not. After all, True Seeing someone with no auras reveals information does it not?

Makes me wonder if a Mind Blanked Clerics prayers can be answered by their god...

The real problem is the phrase "protects against ... information gathering" is not well defined. Is True Strike gathering information about the attacker or the victim? Remember that the target is not specified until the following attack. Is See Invisible "gathering information" or enhancing a sense of the perceiver? Is True Seeing "gathering information" or merely penetrating an Invisibility spell?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The same can be said for invisibility. Invisibility does not affect the mind. It allows light to effectively pass through a creature as if it were totally transparent. To divine the creatures location, you must be detecting information about either the creature or its invisibility spell itself.

While that could be true, it is not obvious that it must be true. You are relying on a very modern scientific light theory, and rememberances of Star Trek and Predator style "cloaking devices".

The are other theories of Invisiblity that could work in a fantasy world.

For example, an illusion of the surrounding background overlayed on top of the image of the invisible person. That is effectively the same as what you suggest, except True Seeing would penetrate any "overlays" without affecting the invisible person in any way.

I always like how invisbility worked with the One Ring. Bilbo could still be seen...if you can see into the Shadow world.