Minion Fist Fights

[Andor]

Here is a point I honestly don't get. What is the reason for developing a narrative based ruleset for a game centered solely around killing things and taking their stuff?

A narrativist ruleset for a game centered around courtly love I understand. Likewise for games about gods influencing the mortal world, or monsters stuggling with the horror of their own nature.

A "simulationist" system like Hero or Gurps I understand for games where tracking minutia is desireable like a gritty tale of Medieval yeoman conscripts, or a crime/mystery solving game of cops dealing with gangs and slowly dawning horror.

Where does a game of tactical combat between faceless monsters and murdering plunderers with pretensions of glory gain from having a system that passes lightly over the details of that combat that is at the heart of it's function?

And Hong, please don't tell me not to think about it. No offense but as I said (in an utterly unrelated conversation a few weeks ago) I will never apologize for suggesting someone think.

 

[hong]

Here is a point I honestly don't get. What is the reason for developing a narrative based ruleset for a game centered solely around killing things and taking their stuff?

Context.

And Hong, please don't tell me not to think about it. No offense but as I said (in an utterly unrelated conversation a few weeks ago) I will never apologize for suggesting someone think.

See, it all works if you don't think about it.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Andor I view it likes this, the narrative ruleset for combat (I am assuming when talking about the rules for combat, given that narrative rules will of course play a role in non-combat/social, etc.) is that it helps in blending the gameplay together into a collective whole.

By having narratively driven combat, it means that combat can weave just as tightly into the story as other narrative rules. So as such whatever story or concept your game is following it is not disturbed by combat.

Hopefully my post was understandable (3 am writing sometimes equals DOHS!)

 

[AZRogue]

I don't see 4E as really narrative. Instead, it has just chosen to concentrate on results and gameplay instead of worrying about the rules also providing a structure outside a gameplay scenario. 4E seems to want your experience while playing the game to be the best (in their opinion) it can be without worrying about whether the rules as written support simulating the world away from the players.

It seems a very reasonable focus to me. YMMV.

 

[ryryguy]

(Reaching back a few days in the thread, sorry...)

I do that when I have to. But I often find it more interesting to derive plots from the universe, then to impose my plots ON the universe. That's why I have trouble with 4e. In 3e, I could get plots from stat blocks; in 4e, I decide on my plot and then build stat blocks for it.

I personally have no problem with minions only being minions when they fight the PC's... with the combat engine being largely decoupled from the larger gameworld and narrative. I have certainly experienced some struggles and rough points with the old style, and I'm excited to try out the new.

Even given that point of view, I just wanted to say that I do appreciate Lizard's comment here. It is cool that in 3e, you could maybe get a plot point out of a mechanic... something like: because a guy gets a saving throw against charm once a day, the succubus behind the throne has to arrange to be alone with the king at that time to re-charm if necessary. This is cool not from the inspiration, but because when this detail is revealed in the course of the adventure, the players' "a-ha!" is amplified by their shared a priori understanding of how the game world works.

That may end up occasionally being missed in 4e. At least, it will be somewhat more challenging to set up. The DM may educate the players about his custom, story "out-of-combat charm mechanics" during the course of the adventure, but it would be harder to do so without being heavy-handed and giving the game away prematurely. (At least in this example.)

But still, there's lots of 4e stuff we haven't seen yet, obviously. It may be that there are some suggested gameworld "laws" (outside of the combat engine) you can play off of in similar ways.

And if not, then if that high degree of world consistency and logic is important to you and your game, then maybe you can have fun creating it! I really don't think things like weirdness of minion hp in combat will really interfere with that effort unless you are looking for problems... there should still be many points from the rules you can play off of, and just downplay or handwave the odd bits that don't work out.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't see 4E as really narrative.

I don't either. I see it as a highly gamist game. The rule changes are designed to encourage a more minature driven tactical game, ensure greater balance between the classes, ensure greater viability of classes at all levels of play, remove anything from core play which is difficult to translate to a video game, allow for more open ended play by implementing diablo/WoW like 'fixed math', and so forth. It's not a story driven rules set. It is a combat driven rules set. It's a tactical skirmish game with the option to role play.

I think that its being welcomed by some more narrativist types because they are hoping for something which is less burdensome to thier style of play and high on that list would be fixing the balance of the game in and out of combat so that they can focus on the story more. I also think that there are quite a few gamists who are talking about 4E as a narrativist game because 'gamist' has acquired (quite unfairly) a reputation for being a less mature sort of play, and 'narrativist' has acquired (quite unfairly) a reputation for being a more serious, mature, and sophisticated form of play.

But I think that the idea that 4E is a narrative driven game is undermined by all sorts of points, not the least of which is hong's continual chorus of 'don't think about it'.

 

[hong]

But I think that the idea that 4E is a narrative driven game is undermined by all sorts of points, not the least of which is hong's continual chorus of 'don't think about it'.

You will be amazed at how many problems this solves.

 

[Andor]

You will be amazed at how many problems this solves.

I find myself unable to respond to this without violating the "No Politics" rule...

 

[hong]

I find myself unable to respond to this without violating the "No Politics" rule...

Politics is involved in pretending to be elves?

 

[Andor]

Politics is involved in pretending to be elves?

No, vampires.