Minion Fist Fights

[Lizard]

What if we assume, just for a moment, that the PCs don't own hundreds of peasants to do with what they please?

They might not. The local lord does. So he only needs heroes when he's run out of peasants.

One of the things I discovered working on Fields of Blood was just HOW NASTY even mid level monsters are in 3x, compared to the level 1 shlubs that make up the world. Even if the peasants hit (unlikely), many, many, critters have such high DR that even a critical with max damage rolled won't do much. Many have too high an AC to be hit on anything but a 20, and even then, you have only 1-in-20 chance of confirming that potential crit. One or two CR 9 or 10 creatures can wipe out entire armies of level 1 warriors, statistically speaking. Never mind what a CR 20 dragon can do -- using the demographics of the DMG, most cities would be destroyed by one, even if they threw everything they had at it. You NEEDED heroes, no matter how many peasant levies you could raise; no one else could do the job.

4e? Even leaving aside minions, there's no DR, 20s always hit and always crit. Your peasant levies just got a lot tougher.

And maybe that makes sense. 4e postulates a lot fewer heroes and a much rougher world, so if a gang of 20 farmers can't kill the occasional troll or ankheg or bullette, there's going to be no points of light at all. So in a twisted sort of way, the rules *are* simulationist, as they seem to accurately model how the world has to work for it to exist as described.

And that's where we get to my tipping point -- do the rules describe the world in a believable fashion? If they do, then they work. If they don't, then they don't. Some of the things I've heard from the PHB 'sneak peek' are actually getting me interested in a positive way. I'm trying to keep an open mind here.

 

[Fifth Element]

They might not. The local lord does. So he only needs heroes when he's run out of peasants.

No, he needs heroes before he runs out of peasants. His peasant army may be able to hold off the hordes for a little bit, while the lord hires some heroes to do a proper job, but they will be overcome. And who's going to work the land or pay the taxes if the lord uses his peasants to fight off invasions?

 

[Fifth Element]

4e? Even leaving aside minions, there's no DR, 20s always hit and always crit. Your peasant levies just got a lot tougher.

Bear in mind that the peasants would likely be minions themselves.

 

[Korgoth]

They might not. The local lord does. So he only needs heroes when he's run out of peasants.

One of the things I discovered working on Fields of Blood was just HOW NASTY even mid level monsters are in 3x, compared to the level 1 shlubs that make up the world. Even if the peasants hit (unlikely), many, many, critters have such high DR that even a critical with max damage rolled won't do much. Many have too high an AC to be hit on anything but a 20, and even then, you have only 1-in-20 chance of confirming that potential crit. One or two CR 9 or 10 creatures can wipe out entire armies of level 1 warriors, statistically speaking. Never mind what a CR 20 dragon can do -- using the demographics of the DMG, most cities would be destroyed by one, even if they threw everything they had at it. You NEEDED heroes, no matter how many peasant levies you could raise; no one else could do the job.

4e? Even leaving aside minions, there's no DR, 20s always hit and always crit. Your peasant levies just got a lot tougher.

And maybe that makes sense. 4e postulates a lot fewer heroes and a much rougher world, so if a gang of 20 farmers can't kill the occasional troll or ankheg or bullette, there's going to be no points of light at all. So in a twisted sort of way, the rules *are* simulationist, as they seem to accurately model how the world has to work for it to exist as described.

And that's where we get to my tipping point -- do the rules describe the world in a believable fashion? If they do, then they work. If they don't, then they don't. Some of the things I've heard from the PHB 'sneak peek' are actually getting me interested in a positive way. I'm trying to keep an open mind here.

See, this is a point of view that works for me. In point of fact it probably is possible to bring down a mammoth (or some other giant muscular critter) with a single spear thrust, so long as the thrust goes through the eye and into the brain, or penetrates the neck, or whatever. As long as we stick with the notion that 1 hit point of damage is a life-threatening wound (and therefore does not represent the injury of a stubbed toe or incidental cut, both of which can be painful but not life-threatening) then the mammoth can go until he receives a life-threatening hit. He ignores non-life threatening hits all day long, just like everybody else. What separates him from BeoMammoth the Mammoth Hero is that no matter how good a spear throw you make, that slippery cuss always seems to turn aside at the last minute, the spear either missing completely or perhaps sticking ineffectually in its ample mastodon rump. Hunting down that mammoth (Ol' Snaggletusk or whatever the tribe calls him) is the stuff of legend.

Likewise, perhaps there are trolls for whom a mob of 20 villagers with pointy weapons would be threatening. The thing is, you never know (as a villager) when you're facing Grendel the troll and when you're facing Urkel the troll. And there's nothing less than your life at stake. And even if you guys eventually get him, there are going to be a lot of widows in town after this fight. So maybe you'd be better off paying some heroes to do the job, if possible? After all, to you, a troll's a troll. Better safe than ripped to shreds.

Still, when the baddies raid your point of light, Joe Peasant might be able to take one down. This can be seen as establishing a PoL ecology, as you pointed out.

 

[Fifth Element]

The thing is, you never know (as a villager) when you're facing Grendel the troll and when you're facing Urkel the troll. And there's nothing less than your life at stake. And even if you guys eventually get him, there are going to be a lot of widows in town after this fight. So maybe you'd be better off paying some heroes to do the job, if possible? After all, to you, a troll's a troll. Better safe than ripped to shreds.

Yes. It's easy to say "throw the peasants at it", but that assumes you know that the monster is a minion (and how would you know that ahead of time), and assumes the peasants would go along with the plan. In-game, peasants are people too. They will fight in dire circumstances, but generally against a fearsome monster, they will flee. They have no way of knowing, in-game, that the monster will fall with a single lucky hit.

 

[Rex Blunder]

I gotta say, Lizard, I like your reductio-ad-absurdum wooly mammoth scenario. I think it sounds Kickin'. Throw a couple of velociraptors on motorcycles and you've got something.

If the heroes are sufficiently high-level that they could conceivably take a wooly mammoth one-on-one without too much trouble, then I don't have a problem with there being mammoth minions. I'm guessing this is at least Paragon tier.

At first I thought, "It seems like an abuse to have minions who are fighting other minions. After all, minions are supposed to be creatures who can be plowed through BY THE PCs. 'Minion' is a relative term."

Then I thought, "Yeah, but I honestly don't want to be tracking the hit points of a bunch of wooly mammoths and cavemen who aren't even interacting with the PCs. I don't want to sit there rolling tons and tons of dice while the PCs wait to attack or be attacked. So, if the mammoths' and cavemen's AC and attack bonuses are such that a mammoth will kill an appropriate-ish number of cavemen, then, SURE. Minions fighing minions might be a good timesaver."

Minion rules might actually allow this big battle to work without a lot of dead time for the players.

Do you think the caveman princess is a warlord?

 

[Sojorn]

I'm guessing this is at least Paragon tier.

Epic.

At the earliest.

 

[Lizard]

Likewise, perhaps there are trolls for whom a mob of 20 villagers with pointy weapons would be threatening. The thing is, you never know (as a villager) when you're facing Grendel the troll and when you're facing Urkel the troll.

Sure you do:
One troll=Grendel
Twenty trolls=Urkel

4e works on the Ninja Rule, whereby there is a fixed amount of Ninja Power in the universe, and the more ninjas there are in any given scene, the weaker each ninja is. If you face 100 ninja, you can mow them down like butter, if you ever ran your lawnmower over butter. If you face one ninja, make out your will.

 

[Cadfan]

Why *couldn't* they be? Seriously.

I know that technically speaking the DM can make any monster he wants into a minion. This is much like how a DM can rule that in HIS campaign, kobolds have 30 billion hit points, or how, in 3e, I as a DM can grant a goblin 15 class levels in Warmage, while not actually changing his appearance or gear, then hide him amongst a bunch of goblin warrior 1s.

So... I suppose if I, as DM, wanted to declare that mammoths, or Balors, or Elder Gods were minions now, I could do that.

But of course no one can blame WOTC for the possibility that someone might customize their campaign in a way that you don't like.

I'm operating from the assumption that the key test for whether a monster is a minion is whether it makes sense for a character of a particular level to kill a particular monster in one hit. That's what the mammoth question aimed at. I suppose I should have been more precise for the sake of pedants. So, does anyone disagree with the likelihood that that's the test?

If the idea of wooly mammoth minions is too much, you haven't drunk enough 4e kool aid. By the design ethos of 4e, it makes perfect sense to me.

You think this because the way you entertain yourself on this forum is constructing straw person versions of 4e, insist that other people believe them, then declaring victory when it turns out that the reality is more reasonable than your crabbed vision.

 

[Lizard]

I gotta say, Lizard, I like your reductio-ad-absurdum wooly mammoth scenario. I think it sounds Kickin'. Throw a couple of velociraptors on motorcycles and you've got something.

What's so reductio about it? There's 22nd level minion devils. Compared to that, minion mammoths is nothing. Hell, look at King Kong. You had minion raptors and bronotsaurs.

If the heroes are sufficiently high-level that they could conceivably take a wooly mammoth one-on-one without too much trouble, then I don't have a problem with there being mammoth minions. I'm guessing this is at least Paragon tier.

Yeah, you usually hit the Lost Valley Of The Dinosaurs around 10th level old school, 15th level 4e.

At first I thought, "It seems like an abuse to have minions who are fighting other minions. After all, minions are supposed to be creatures who can be plowed through BY THE PCs. 'Minion' is a relative term."

Why is this an abuse? Isn't it the best model for the "PC's lead their army of redshirts against the enemy redshirts?" During the various Big Fights of LOTR, you had armies of disposables killing each other, while the heroes took out the Named.

Do you think the caveman princess is a warlord?

Unless the Bard class has come out by then, yeah. There's also going to be a shaman (warlock or cleric) in the mix. There always is.