Minion Fist Fights

[occam]

It is entirely ridiculous to assume that a missed burst or blast that does half damage would not kill a minion.

I can already see that I'm going to have to houserule this, until WotC can provide any better reason NOT to.

Minion status is an abstraction to speed play. Don't think of them as having literally one hit point; they have enough hit points that they can survive ancillary attack effects, but not enough to survive a well-placed attack from a PC able to hit them. Stating it as "1 hp; miss does nothing" is just an easier way to handle the record-keeping.

 

[LostSoul]

Maybe because I'm not smart enough. Or wearing blinders. But the problem is that I can't seem to think consistently of a world where the vast majority of people die from a cut.

Why do you have to describe the world that way?

 

[AverageCitizen]

I'll ask it again: does "A minion does not have hit points. Instead, a minion is incapacitated by any successful hit which does damage," make the concept less conceptually troublesome?

When you put it that way it reminded me that they use minions in Mutants and Masterminds, with pretty much the exact wording you just used. I had forgotten.

Anyway, they wouldn't actually kill each other in one hit, or from one accident, or whatever. But I've already gotten into on another thread, so I'm not going to say it again.

 

[I'm A Banana]

All this talk about people who aren't thinking about it right misses the point. This isn't, at its core, a simulation argument. This is a believability argument. I share, I think, Korgoth's threshold for believability.

Maybe because I'm not smart enough. Or wearing blinders. But the problem is that I can't seem to think consistently of a world where the vast majority of people die from a cut.

I 100% agree with this sentence.

I still don't have a major problem with 1 hp minions.

First of all, because those minions don't "really" have 1 hp. That list is just there to remind the DM that they die in one hit. They might have 17000 hp, but they're "1 hp minions" because the PCs will remove 17000 hp in one hit, so those 17000 hp don't really matter vs. the PC's (though they'll matter in a bar fight).

Second of all, because hp don't represent how many cuts you can take. They represent how adept you are at avoiding a fatal cut. "1 hp minion" means "This guy can't avoid a fatal cut from a PC at this level." Going against other minions, he doesn't have 1 hp, because he can take a potentially fatal cut from anyone else who's not a PC.

"1 hp minion" is a shorthand, an abbreviation, the scientific notation. It's perhaps an unfortunate wording choice, but they don't actually have 1 hp. They have "less hp than the damage a character will do in a single hit."

 

[pawsplay]

"1 hp minion" is a shorthand, an abbreviation, the scientific notation. It's perhaps an unfortunate wording choice, but they don't actually have 1 hp. They have "less hp than the damage a character will do in a single hit."

Unfortunately, they have less hp than the damage ANY character will do in a single hit, including NPCs, pets, dominated monsters, and rival monsters. And that is problematic.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Unfortunately, they have less hp than the damage ANY character will do in a single hit, including NPCs, pets, dominated monsters, and rival monsters. And that is problematic.

Okay, so a minion is a guy who dies / is incapacitated by a single enemy attack. Apparently the Fates don't favor him or something. Is the problem from a simulationist perspective? Plenty of people in RL die / are incapacitated by single stab wounds, gunshots and the like (and yes, I realize that D&D is a fantasy game and not RL). I'm merely pointing out that having someone that gets taken out by a single attack isn't out of sync with realism (IMO, creatures with high hp are a lot more of of whack with reality than those with very few).
Their defense value also provides them with protection against auto-death (just because I swing at one doesn't mean it will die / be incapacitated, it only dies if my attack is confirmed).
Minions aren't meant to be important to the narrative. If they were, they'd have more than 1 hp.

I honestly don't see the problem.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Unfortunately, they have less hp than the damage ANY character will do in a single hit, including NPCs, pets, dominated monsters, and rival monsters. And that is problematic.

No, that's kind of my point.

"1 hp" is a way of saying "1 hit from a PC kills them."

It's not a way of saying "they can only take 1 hp worth of damage."

Unfortunate wording. They don't mean literally 1 hp. They mean effectively, functionally, for the purposes of the combat you'll be using them in, 1 hp. Outside of that? They'll have a different total. It might be, say, 4. They still die in one hit.

 

[AZRogue]

No, that's kind of my point.

"1 hp" is a way of saying "1 hit from a PC kills them."

It's not a way of saying "they can only take 1 hp worth of damage."

Unfortunate wording. They don't mean literally 1 hp. They mean effectively, functionally, for the purposes of the combat you'll be using them in, 1 hp. Outside of that? They'll have a different total. It might be, say, 4. They still die in one hit.

That's exactly right. Having 1 hit point is a representation of how easy it is for a *PC* to kill them. It is not meant to be a representation of the creatures actual hit points (life points? we need a better term, or I do at least).

4E tells us that a PC can kill a Minion in one hit. And it doesn't CARE about how many hits the minion could take from another minion, or anyone else. Nor do I, as a DM. I never have, in any edition, ROLLED OUT a battle between NPCs where the PCs weren't directly involved. It just never occurred to me to subject myself to that when there was no need. I would just declare the outcome that seemed the most likely or advanced the adventure.


So, here's the concept we should wrap our heads around: Minions do not have 1 hit point unless a PC or party NPC attacks them. When another creature out in the world attacks them the outcome deemed appropriate by the DM would occur. Hit points do not represent how much "life" a creature has.

 

[Irda Ranger]

First, remember the golden rule: hit points are an abstraction.

"Minions do not have hit points. Instead, a minion is incapacitated by any successful hit which does damage."

I know HP are an abstraction. Since D&D is a heroic fantasy game (not gritty), I'm fine with them. Heroes have lots of HP. I'm actually a (tongue in cheek) fan of renaming them "Awesome Points", because you survive crap like being bitten by a Tarrasque out of sheer awesomeness.

But I also expect everyone to have their awesomeness abstracted away using the same algorithm. They may come at them from a different angle, and I appreciate the "shortcuts" by which Brutes and Artillery determine HP, but the Minion rules suddenly have 1 HP, which just screams to me "This isn't a real creature, it's just a movie prop." It's as believable as a plywood F-22 with a bad paint job.

In relation to (i), it is not the role of the mechanics, but rather the narrative, to ensure internal consistency.

I disagree with this. I need both. You can see my sig below, and it's very true of my playstyle. I like things to be "emergent", where simple but consistent rules create complex systems and stories. I don't approach any D&D campaign with a predetermined story which I'm going to "tell" to the PC's. The "narrative" is jointly discovered, and it can take surprising turns when combats or RP take unexpected twists.

That's what bothers me about Minions. They're a statement by the DM that "This isn't a serious challenge. These guys only have one purpose, and that's to make you feel cool as adventurers." Well, I don't like playing those games. Both from a DM's point of view and a player's point of view it's a hollow victory, with a predetermined outcome. It's like a fixed boxing match, or WWF Wrestling (neither of which I can't stand).

 

[Korgoth]

Most humans can survive more that six stab wound if they don't hit vital spots.

0-level human in 1e have 6 or less hps.

A "non-vital" shot must be capable of being fraction hp or not always reducing hit points.

Well, I've been thinking this stuff over. I don't buy the "stage argument" (because it's really a stage on a stage, and we're back to me not being able to consider it a fantasy), nor do I buy the "minions only have 1 hp vs. PCs" because there will be fights where minions are hitting other minions (like when some minions are helping the PCs or whatever).

But you do raise an excellent point here. The OD&D or 1E commoner tops out at 6 hit points. But he could sustain more than 6 cuts if none of them were life-threatening. Plus, you could be a 1 hit point commoner in either of those editions (which are really my standard for thinking about the game and how it is intended to work).

Therefore, you must be correct when you say that not every knife cut does at least 1 hit point... it must be possible to deliver a "cosmetic cut". In Gygaxian D&D, there is either a hit or a miss, and all hits do 1 or more damage. Therefore, a cosmetic cut must be a miss (maybe call it a "miss by 1" or something).

So, to carry out this line of reasoning, any wound that does 1 hit point or more, even in Gygaxian D&D (because a character or commoner could have 1 hp), must be a potentially life-threatening wound. If you have more than 1 hit point, you spend whatever amount of those is necessary to zero out the damage... i.e. your hit points above 1 essentially reduce the severity of the wound to a non-life threatening status, either because of your amazing fitness or your ability to dodge or the favor of the divine or your strange metaphysical connection to Chuck Norris. Your "hero-ness" kicks in and the damage is reduced to a mere cut, just as Gary described the high hit point fighter doing in the 1E DMG.

Thus, we would be saying not that a cut is a damaging wound that nonetheless doesn't put you down, but that hit points (above 1, at least) are your ability to turn killing blows into those inconsequential cuts that in reality would do zero damage to a 1 hit point character. If that were not so, then a 1 hit point farmer could not sustain a mere cut, which surely as a farmer he can do.

OK. That seems to follow. Thanks for taking the time to deal with my skepticism. I'll ponder this some more.