Minion Fist Fights

[Scribble]

"We sent Corporal Smith out with the grenade to kill those orcs."
"And?"
"He's dead."
"Huh. I could have sworn we had a 'no 1st-level warrior' policy in the guard."
"That's for the Elite Watch, sir. He was with the Slum Patrol. They'll take anyone."
"Oh well..."

Why are we discussing metagame terms in in-game terms? Would the captain of the watch comment that Cpl. Smith had only 5 hit points, so he should have sent out Sgt. Johnson, who's 2 levels higher and has a higher Constitution and has 17 hit points? Of course not, that would be ridiculous.

Exactly... here's how I see it:

"We sent Corporal Smith out with the grenade to kill those orcs."
"And?"
"He's dead. But he did manage to take one out with him sir..."
"Huh. They can be kileld then... You see that men? Stand your ground like the men you are! We can fight these things or die trying!"
"Sir... there's 300 of them... there's only 20 of us... even if each of us could manage to kill two of them..."
"Then we just better hope the time it takes for those bastards to kill us gives the women and children time to escape..."

PC Hero... "Leave those ugly pig faced a-holes to us..."

 

[Fifth Element]

If it's ridiculous to assume that characters know about the rough theory of character levels and hit points in-game, I claim that it is likewise ridiculous likewise for them to know about the existence of magic.

No, it's not ridiculous for characters to know that some in-game people are tougher than others, and my post certainly did not imply that. But the example I was referring to involved characters knowing exactly how many hit points another character had (as a minion). Not just that he wasn't very tough, but that he had only 1 hit point.

Your counterpoint is inaccurate; the equivalent would be characters knowing exactly how much damage a magic missile spell causes.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In D&D, there is a factor that determines whether a given blow will slay you or not; it's called hit points. Hit points can be determined, tracked, and the conditions that grant or remove them can be observed. If it's ridiculous to assume that characters know about the rough theory of character levels and hit points in-game, I claim that it is likewise ridiculous likewise for them to know about the existence of magic.

But hit points are abstract. And they are even more so in 4E then they have ever been. Hit-point wise, you can heal all damage you have taken, despite having been knocked down to -half your bloodied value +1 and failed 2 death saves, with a short rest. Sure, you might complain about that too, but that is one of the premises of 4E.

In the end that means what hit points damage is all up to your flavor text. Some Orcs will survive 20 game-term attacks because they have so many hit points. You can describe them beeing stabbed in the guts 20 times, or buy evading each and every blow until the final one. Some Orcs will survive 20 game-term attacks because their defenses are high enough so that only the 20th actually connected, and since they had only 1 hit point, they're dead.

And the problem is - from the outside, you won't really know if you fought Orc type 1 or Orc type 2. The closed thing you can measure is "time between first attack and deadly death" (if you can even measure what constitutes an attack, if most attacks present multiple swings and maneuvers). Measuring this stuff in the game-world is very hard.

 

[Andor]

Simulationism is dead. Long live illusionism.

From a simulationist perspective, a 21st minion dies if you stab it with a spork.

From an illusionist perspective, you didn't stab the minion with a fork. Instead, you have huge muscles, and you have a magical greatsword, and you just chopped a weak demon into two pieces so that you could get at his master.

From an illusionist perspective, information like "secretly, the minion only had one hit points" is metagame knowledge that your character doesn't know. In strict game terms, your character knows he just pulverized a demon. In slight metagame terms, you know you just did 4d6+a bunch of damage, because you're 21st level.

In heavily metagame terms, you might know about the 1 hp thing, but you don't think in heavily metagame terms, because anyone who metagames that much and then whines about their sense of immersion is engaged in self inflicted injury.

You're seriously going to tell me that it's metagaming for my character to notice that out of a horde of apparently identical demons who look like this: [sblock=Demon]

[/sblock]
70% of them die to a single hit from any weapon, even a blowgun dart, but the other 30% need dozens of hits to kill. And that pretty much every battle they've ever fought in had the same thing going on. For all 300 encounters of their adventuring career. But it's metagaming for my Int 20 Wizard to pick up on this, and wonder why 70% of all Wooly Mammoths can be slain with stale pastry?

 

[Fifth Element]

The only problem I can think of with using minions is changing my mini-using habits. Typically, if I have a group of goblins or whatever, and there are several types of goblins with different stats (archers, skirmishers, war chiefs, etc), I'll use the same mini for each type to make it easier for me to keep track of the stats of the goblins on the board. But if I use the same mini to represent each minion, my players could figure out which mini represents the minions after the first one falls and metagame to take advantage of that.

 

[AZRogue]

70% of them die to a single hit from any weapon, even a blowgun dart, but the other 30% need dozens of hits to kill. And that pretty much every battle they've ever fought in had the same thing going on. For all 300 encounters of their adventuring career. But it's metagaming for my Int 20 Wizard to pick up on this, and wonder why 70% of all Wooly Mammoths can be slain with stale pastry?

Absolutely. The ones you killed in one hit didn't die because they were weak so much as you landed a more deadly blow. Right past any defenses and into the heart, so to speak. The ones who take longer to kill don't allow you to penetrate their defenses until that final damage roll. So it means you're very good, not that they're really bad. Your int 20 wizard would know that.

 

[Fifth Element]

And that pretty much every battle they've ever fought in had the same thing going on. For all 300 encounters of their adventuring career. But it's metagaming for my Int 20 Wizard to pick up on this, and wonder why 70% of all Wooly Mammoths can be slain with stale pastry?

You are, of course, assuming that there will be minions in every encounter. I don't think that's the intent, and if you foresee a problem with that, then don't use minions in every encounter. Use them when appropriate.

 

[AZRogue]

The only problem I can think of with using minions is changing my mini-using habits. Typically, if I have a group of goblins or whatever, and there are several types of goblins with different stats (archers, skirmishers, war chiefs, etc), I'll use the same mini for each type to make it easier for me to keep track of the stats of the goblins on the board. But if I use the same mini to represent each minion, my players could figure out which mini represents the minions after the first one falls and metagame to take advantage of that.

Yeah, I've thought of this too. I'm mixing it up when it comes to minion miniatures. More trouble for me, maybe, but worth it.

 

[LostSoul]

70% of them die to a single hit from any weapon, even a blowgun dart, but the other 30% need dozens of hits to kill. And that pretty much every battle they've ever fought in had the same thing going on. For all 300 encounters of their adventuring career. But it's metagaming for my Int 20 Wizard to pick up on this, and wonder why 70% of all Wooly Mammoths can be slain with stale pastry?

Sometimes you get lucky.

 

[CrimsonNeko]

70% of them die to a single hit from any weapon, even a blowgun dart, but the other 30% need dozens of hits to kill. And that pretty much every battle they've ever fought in had the same thing going on. For all 300 encounters of their adventuring career. But it's metagaming for my Int 20 Wizard to pick up on this, and wonder why 70% of all Wooly Mammoths can be slain with stale pastry?

I would say it's fine they know that, honestly. First of all, since that 30% doesn't drop from one hit, they can't just assume they can plow through everything. If they just try to charge through a line of them, they're going to hit a non-minion half way through and suddenly have all the survivors beating on them and die quickly. Honestly, I don't really feel it takes away from the epic-ness. In every fantasy book or movie I've read, as a D&D player I've always been bothered by how the characters can plow through so many nameless hordes. I mean, it seemed totally natural that an orc could die from being stabbed in the face by an arrow in the lord of the rings movies. It seems people are just bothered by the fact that the rules reflect that now.