Minion Fist Fights

[Bagpuss]

And yet, no matter how many times (one, ten, or a hundred) they are to receive damage from a miss-effect, it will never add up, but it will for the 2nd level Orc drudge right next to them.

Really the only thing that matters in the game is if a character is alive, or dead (or unconscious in some cases). Hit points are an abstract to let you know when a character goes from alive to dead status. It covers all sorts of things, from actual vitality and health, to luck and determination. For players (and main bad guys) it's useful to have wide scale for dramatic tension, so they can judge when is a good point to press the attack, when is a good point to retreat.

But for minions, all you need to know is if it is alive or dead, hence no need for a scale.

In effect, their hit points waver between one and infinity, depending on how well the player rolls their attack.

So? Hit points are an abstract anyway, what does it matter if they have 1 or an infinite amount. What matters is if they are alive or dead. That is determined by a successful damaging hit, the 1 hp is just a mechanic to record their alive status.

They are caught in the blast of a fireball but not "hit" then it burns them, you could even discribe them as the flesh blistered and such but they still alive, so they still have 1 hp.

 

[hong]

Saying that you can house-rule 3e to have 4e-style minions is correct.

You could use Shadowrun rules in 3.5 too.

That doesn't say anything substantive about 3e, 4e, or Shadowrun, though.

The idea seems to be that using house rules to replace 2-column, 9-point serif type promotes a sense of ownership, fights complacency and builds character. Only you know what you really want from your campaign, and hence the more rules (which are written for the mass market) that you replace, the better your campaign will be. In fact, the better the rules appear to be, the worse they actually are, because this just results in a false sense of security. The best rulebook is thus not one that actually contains rules, but simply reading material to stimulate the imagination. I, for one, am planning to use Wikipedia as my rulebook for my next campaign.

 

[Hussar]

So you never achieved that with 3E?
That's kinda sad.

It's sad because there is absolutely no way to do this in 3e. If I send 30+ enemies at the PC's, even if I go a 5+APL on the EL, the mooks are going to be so low on the CR scale that they are not any challenge.

And, wasting time at the table while the players roll endless d20's with absolutely no threat of failure is not my idea of fun.

YMMV and all that.

 

[Hussar]

8th level Angel of Valor. 88 hp.

21st level Angel of Valor. 1 hp.

8th level PC roughly 20 damage/attack

21st level PC roughly 100 damage/attack

Any more questions?

Yeah, the DMG in previous editions was harsh the way it prevented people from doing that.

A friend of mine found an underground cyberpunk to remove the tracking device from his DMG so he could put 1hp opponents in his game. It was harrowing for a while there.

Oh, wait, that means you could have done that with any of previous editions. So, there you go. You have three previous editions of AD&D and the BECMI version to choose from.

Umm, no you couldn't. How do you make a creature with 2 hit dice only have 1 hp? And, while you complain about the unrealism of minions, you have no problems with hundreds of people having only 1 hp?

Let's see you create a 10 hit dice creature, with 1 hp, and a +15 attack bonus in previous editions. I'll wait.

 

[Rex Blunder]

Clearly this must also be a postcount thing.

Nah, then he'd make a bunch of short, koan-like posts - maybe squeezing in a hidden meaning or two

 

[Andor]

Let's see you create a 10 hit dice creature, with 1 hp, and a +15 attack bonus in previous editions. I'll wait.

Orc Minion
HD: 10
HP: 1 (Because I'm the GM and I said so.)
Attk: +15 1d10+5 (Including Because I said so bonus)
AC: 32 10 base 4 armour 2 dex 16 GM said so

Done. Make a "favored of the GM" template if you want to. Or check out the "Paragon" template from the ELH. It's a bunch of utterly arbitrary +20 luck bonuses that amount to the same thing.

Also where are you getting 100 hp per attack at 22 lvl? That seems much higher than the flatter curve we've seen for 4e would indicate.

 

[Scribble]

Orc Minion
HD: 10
HP: 1 (Because I'm the GM and I said so.)
Attk: +15 1d10+5 (Including Because I said so bonus)
AC: 32 10 base 4 armour 2 dex 16 GM said so

Done. Make a "favored of the GM" template if you want to. Or check out the "Paragon" template from the ELH. It's a bunch of utterly arbitrary +20 luck bonuses that amount to the same thing.

Also where are you getting 100 hp per attack at 22 lvl? That seems much higher than the flatter curve we've seen for 4e would indicate.

Rock on... So you've pretty much done what a minion does but with more work for you. Not to mention the fact that WOTC has alo kindly done the math for us to show when the challeneg per level works out right...

Also you've made the game inconsistent (were you the one arguing that?) in that why do some races have a class and others just have raceness?

 

[Rex Blunder]

OK, then you'll agree that minions are not a bad ruleset because I can give the minions 50 hit points?

Are we discussing RAW or not? Is the pro-minion side allowed to make up crazy nonlegal stuff too?

 

[hong]

Orc Minion
HD: 10
HP: 1 (Because I'm the GM and I said so.)
Attk: +15 1d10+5 (Including Because I said so bonus)
AC: 32 10 base 4 armour 2 dex 16 GM said so

Done. Make a "favored of the GM" template if you want to. Or check out the "Paragon" template from the ELH. It's a bunch of utterly arbitrary +20 luck bonuses that amount to the same thing.

... or you could just play 4E. Seems to save an awful lot of house ruling.

 

[Andor]

Rock on... So you've pretty much done what a minion does but with more work for you. Not to mention the fact that WOTC has alo kindly done the math for us to show when the challeneg per level works out right...

Also you've made the game inconsistent (were you the one arguing that?) in that why do some races have a class and others just have raceness?

I'm not claiming this is a good idea. I was just irritated by the absurdity of the "It can't be done in 3e! Prove me wrong." claim. 3e provides a nice clean set of tools for making monsters built in a concistent fashion. There is absolutely nothing that compels a GM to limit himself to that system however.

Frankly if I wanted a bunch of low level orcs to provide a credible threat to a higher level party they would be part of a warband that included a cleric, bard, and Marshal to give them all some boosts. Maybe even an Orc warblade with some white raven powers. If they absolutely had to inflict fsome damage on the PCs they'd have a dragon shaman with a damage aura up.

What I find bizzare about the whole minion disscusion is everybody saying "I want that scene from (book/movie/videogame) where the heros cuts through 500 mooks. And I want those mooks to represent a credible threat to the party!"

... Make up your minds people! Are these minions are threat or aren't they? If they are set dressing for the party to mow down like ants then why do they need to present a greater threat than they would have in 3e? To give you an excuse to award XP for them? *pffft* Conversely if they are a threat then how does the ability to be killed by a stiff breeze enhance their function?