Minion Fist Fights

[hong]

The only thing a higher post count seems to provide is an skill bonus to posting nonsense.

Exactly. And I always check my facts before posting nonsense to mailing lists.

Clearly, the correct answer is "If you could do it (easily) in previous editions, it isn't really an improvement". In other words, the whole concept for minions could have been a short-ish article in Dragon magazine five years ago, or a section of a longer article on DMing. It's hardly 'revolutionary'.

Your use of 'quote marks' does not, unfortunately, count as 'checking your facts'. It is good indeed that the minion excerpt never says anything about it being revolutionary, or you might not have posted nonsense.

 

[Hussar]

You do realize you're critiqueing me for provideing exactly the example you asked for while conveniently ignoring the counter example I offered that stuck with 3e mechanics.

The example you provided doesn't work though.

Basically, you're slapping bandaids on the issue - including clerics and marshals? What if I want a horde of vermin? Or a horde of zombies? Or anything that doesn't get class levels?

The mechanical solution you provided doesn't work either. You gave it 10 hit dice, but no feats, no skills and no CR. And, you cannot simply decide, in 3e, that a creature has less than 1 hp/hit die, unless you drop it's Con below 10. Which doesn't really work on a 10 hit die creature anyway.

Note, I KNOW you can do it by ignoring RAW. That's a given. My argument was that you cannot do it by RAW. Ignoring RAW is not a strength of a system.

 

[hong]

People trumpeting things in 4e as if they were innovations in either game design or D&D.

Oh, it's an ATTRIBUTION thing. This puts all that hoo-ha about mammoth minions into a whole new light.

Like: "Wow! In 4e, the DM is free to IGNORE THE RULES!"

The only ppl who have been ignoring rules are those recreating 4E minions by ignoring the existing 3E framework.

Because, you know, I narrowly dodge the WOTC Ninjas when I just handwave stuff in 3e that gets in the way or strikes me as not working properly for a particular edge case.

... or you could just use 4E. Because apparently all that business about verisimilitude, challenge and elegance was really due to a lack of proper attribution, so a nice apology from WotC should suffice to put things right. Are you listening, WotC?

 

[robertliguori]

The example you provided doesn't work though.

Basically, you're slapping bandaids on the issue - including clerics and marshals? What if I want a horde of vermin? Or a horde of zombies? Or anything that doesn't get class levels?

The mechanical solution you provided doesn't work either. You gave it 10 hit dice, but no feats, no skills and no CR. And, you cannot simply decide, in 3e, that a creature has less than 1 hp/hit die, unless you drop it's Con below 10. Which doesn't really work on a 10 hit die creature anyway.

Note, I KNOW you can do it by ignoring RAW. That's a given. My argument was that you cannot do it by RAW. Ignoring RAW is not a strength of a system.

Just add the following ability to any monsters you want to be minions:
Because I Said So (Ex): This creature exists solely as a narrative construct, and interacts with the world independently of rules or rulings made previously of the rest of the world.

Then run your combat as you desire. That way, you don't have to wonder why it is that this horde of zombies is a threat while the one they fought two levels ago wasn't, and why the identical one they'll fight tomorrow is an entirely different threat. Exception-based design is easy.

I mean, you could come up with rules to represent how to raise zombies, how zombies were mechanically represented in the world, note that past a certain point, characters that can smash adamantine walls by head-butting them and can swim the 100 meter backstroke in hot lava aren't going to be challenged by a swarm of human-shaped, human-strength things that squish more easily than even a soft stone wall, and use another monster if you want said PCs to be challenged by a horde of monsters.

If you want to achieve a certain result more than you want your universe to be consistent, then slap the above ability onto everything, and you're done, easy-peasy.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Just add the following ability to any monsters you want to be minions:
Because I Said So (Ex): This creature exists solely as a narrative construct, and interacts with the world independently of rules or rulings made previously of the rest of the world.

Then run your combat as you desire. That way, you don't have to wonder why it is that this horde of zombies is a threat while the one they fought two levels ago wasn't, and why the identical one they'll fight tomorrow is an entirely different threat. Exception-based design is easy..

Exception based design is easy. But it is not a usual part of D&D 3.5. It is never stated as an important design element, though off course there are tons of examples where it effectively is in place.

More importantly, if WotC had created a "Minion" Template for 3.5, and used it in one of their published modules, people would have been all over it and say how much they hate it. Just, in fact, like they do in for 4E. But, you know, there is a tiny difference:
Before the announcement and the details on 4E, I would have been part of the group that would ridicule WotC on Minions. Because it goes against any and all of the design assumptions and the inherent understanding of the 3E system. It feels like an abonimation of the rules. Since it is strongly against the design assumptions of the game, it might also actually be a bad rule, since there are many cases where this system breaks down.

I already incorporated a lot of the basic design assumptions of 4E into my Iron Heroes game. But I always feel a little dirty about it, because I know I am not following RAW, or even just the basic design assumptions any more.

A new edition, a new system, creates a clean slate. (If you let it.) New assumptions are at work, and new rules can work even if they wouldn't have flown in the previous system.

 

[La Bete]

I wonder how many of the people squeeling about the "freedom" 4e gives DON'T have (as I do) about twenty-odd feet of 3x supplements pulling the game in a thousand different directions. I guess if all you've seen is the SRD, 3e looks pretty constrained.

I'd advance the theory that if you require 20+ foot of supplementary material to remove the constraints from the game, then it's time to re-engineer the game.

Oh, wait....

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Exactly. And I always check my facts before posting nonsense to mailing lists.

I hardly think your household pet counts as fact checking. Perhaps you should try studying math.

Your use of 'quote marks' does not, unfortunately, count as 'checking your facts'. It is good indeed that the minion excerpt never says anything about it being revolutionary, or you might not have posted nonsense.

Oh, I see. So it is just uncritical supporters that loudly and endlessly tout the new rules as being 'revolutionary' and 'liberating', as though each new tidbit has never before seen the light of day in other games. I'll make sure not to extrapolate* in the future.

Since you didn't bother with math, here is a quick primer on English: Quotation marks

The minion issue is easily solved by thinking harder about games.


*it's another math term, so I understand your confusion

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I really fear that Storm-Bringer and hong might eventually cause the use of the red font I so came to dread since the 4E announcement, but somehow, it's too entertaining to watch them...

Edit: Maybe that's fitting and on-topic for a thread called "Minion Fist Fights"?

 

[Andor]

The example you provided doesn't work though.

Basically, you're slapping bandaids on the issue - including clerics and marshals? What if I want a horde of vermin? Or a horde of zombies? Or anything that doesn't get class levels?

The mechanical solution you provided doesn't work either. You gave it 10 hit dice, but no feats, no skills and no CR. And, you cannot simply decide, in 3e, that a creature has less than 1 hp/hit die, unless you drop it's Con below 10. Which doesn't really work on a 10 hit die creature anyway.

Note, I KNOW you can do it by ignoring RAW. That's a given. My argument was that you cannot do it by RAW. Ignoring RAW is not a strength of a system.

It's not the RAW? Hate to break it to you but the first RAW is Rule 0. And if I really felt like it I could stat the critter up using the frail flaw which does allow for 1 hp for a 10 hd critter. by the RAW.

And I'm not slapping bandaids on the issue. It's a non-issue. Want a dangerous horde of vermin or zombies? Swarm and Mob templates respectively. No class levels? I didn't give it class levels actually. It was an incomplete stat block because I was merely taking 30 seconds to disprove your already absurd arguement. And that 30 second statblock would handily provide all I needed to know about a mook anyway, so who cares if it isn't complete?

Look, if you love the minion rules, more power to you. Use them and enjoy. But don't pretend either one of us can't play D&D without them, and don't cry that is can't be done in 3e because it can. In fact here ya go:

[sblock=3.X Mook Template]Mook

Mook is a template provided to a creature that the GM wants to use as a mook. It can be applied to any creature of a CR below the parties level. It enhances the creature to make it a credible threat to the party by adding a Mook Factor. The Mook factor = Party's average level - Base CR.

The base creatures Size, Type, Hit Dice, and Speed are unchanged.

AC, Base Attack bonus and Saving throws and skills all receive a Morale bonus equal to the Mook Factor.

The creatures damage becomes a fixed number equal to it's average damage + 1/2 Mook factor (round down.)

Creatures CR = the party's level -2

Thrilled by the chance to play in the big leagues, mooks enjoy a considerable morale bonus.[/sblock]

Allow me to clarify my position. Since I have never, in almost 30 years of playing RPGs, bought into the "abstract hp" theory to the extent that some do I therefore fear that the 4e minions will prove shockingly disruptive to my immersion in the game in the same way I would feel if a set got knocked over in a movie.

I understand the goal of minions, but it's not a goal I've ever felt unable to achieve in earlier editions. Nor do I think it's desireable to make any previously dangerous foe into mooks just because the party has a few more levels.

If the Balrog took everything they had to defeat 5 levels ago, I do not feel that 6 weeks later they should be knocking them over by the dozen like henchmen in Kung-Fu Hustle. That doesn't make me feel like I've gotten better, it makes me feel like a pansy for having had to sweat to beat the first one.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

The example you provided doesn't work though.

Basically, you're slapping bandaids on the issue - including clerics and marshals? What if I want a horde of vermin? Or a horde of zombies? Or anything that doesn't get class levels?

Then use everything else in the statblock except the hit points. For that, just note a '1' and move on.

Secondly, there are no bandaids, because it isn't an issue in previous editions. There were no minions. What is being described is how it could have easily been done before. Further, its and argument supporting the overarching idea that you don't have to slavishly wait for the rules to hold you by the hand and provide you with an enjoyable gaming experience. Since Mr Gygax put pen to paper, it was always in your hands. That's right! You have always been 'allowed' to change whatever you wanted! That isn't Rule 0. That is how roleplaying games work.

But, from what I have gathered, most of the 4e support I have heard lately doesn't seem to want to go far afield from the letter of the rules. In the last few weeks, the chorus appears to applaud every new rule almost unanimously. Simply taking a monster statblock as written, and changing the hit points to 1 in order to get the 'cinematic feel' people seem to be looking for is anathema.

The mechanical solution you provided doesn't work either. You gave it 10 hit dice, but no feats, no skills and no CR.

So? It's not there to interact with the players. It's there to provide a cinematic horde to make the players feel badass.

And, you cannot simply decide, in 3e, that a creature has less than 1 hp/hit die, unless you drop it's Con below 10. Which doesn't really work on a 10 hit die creature anyway.

I don't understand the first sentence. Why can't I decide that in 3.x? Or, for that matter, in 2nd edition, 1st edition, BECMI, Traveller, Tunnels and Trolls, Star Frontiers or Deadlands? What, precisely, is physically preventing me from doing exactly what I want? I can give a kobold 6 mega-hit points per die, or I can give a dragon one-tenth of a hit point per die, if I so choose. Here, check this out:

Ogre Mage
Type:   	Minion
Hit Dice: 	[b]1 hit point[/b] (5d8+15 (37 hp))
Initiative: 	+4
Speed: 		40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 	18 (-1 size, +5 natural, +4 chain shirt), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base/Grapple: 	+3/+12
Attack: 	Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3)
Full Attack: 	Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3)
Space/Reach: 	10 ft./10 ft.
Spc Attacks: 	Spell-like abilities
Spc Qualities: 	Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, spell resistance 19
Saves: 		Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +3
Abilities: 	Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17
Skills: 		Concentration +11, Listen +10, Spellcraft +10, Spot +10
Feats: 		Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative
Environment: 	Cold hills
Organization: 	Solitary, pair, or troupe (1-2 plus 2-4 ogres)
CR: 		[b]2 (8)[/b]
Treasure: 	Double standard
Alignment: 	Usually lawful evil
Advance: 	By character class
LA: 		+7

I bolded everything I changed to turn this into an Ogre Mage minion. Now, you can cut them down by the score, and they will be a 'credible threat' to the PCs.

Note, I KNOW you can do it by ignoring RAW. That's a given. My argument was that you cannot do it by RAW. Ignoring RAW is not a strength of a system.

Only if you expect the system to cover every possible circumstance that could ever come up.