Minion Saves

[Asmor]

I'm kind of confused... This might make sense if you're back-porting minions to 3e, but in 4e the saves are replaced by defenses and the attacker rolls them, not the defender. So in essence, to make this work in 4e, the rule would have to be "Attacks against minions' defenses, except AC, only miss if a 1 is rolled."

Seems kinda clunky, and I don't get the draw anyways.

 

[jackston2]

They're talking about Saving Throws, not the Defenses.

 

[Asmor]

Right, but AFAIK there are no saving throws; they've been replaced with defenses.

 

[Jer]

I'm toying with the idea of not rolling saves for minions at all.

Once less die roll and all that.

I'm going to need to see how much power it gives the PCs, but yeah, I'm kind of thinking the same thing. Minions should just kind of "fail spectacularly" at the types of things that more "dramatic" opposition should have a chance to luck their way past. And since saving throws seem to now be a measure of a character's "luck", I don't think removing that from minions is per say a bad idea.

OTOH - if the PCs have access to a number of "failed save causes X condition and Y damage" powers then minions are going to be "spectacularly failing" and dying left and right every single time they use those powers. Which might make it a bit too easy on the PCs, even if we're talking about mooks. If the 1 HP threshold for minions is dependent on them getting saving throws, I'll just give them saving throws.

 

[ThirdWizard]

OTOH - if the PCs have access to a number of "failed save causes X condition and Y damage" powers then minions are going to be "spectacularly failing" and dying left and right every single time they use those powers. Which might make it a bit too easy on the PCs, even if we're talking about mooks. If the 1 HP threshold for minions is dependent on them getting saving throws, I'll just give them saving throws.

Remember - saving throws occur after damage is dealt. So, in the event of an ability that does no damage initially then some kind of damage (save ends) ability tacked on, the minion will be dead anyway. The save cannot save them.


I'm all for this idea and will probably go with the always fail option. Even if only for laziness.

 

[Gadget]

Right, but AFAIK there are no saving throws; they've been replaced with defenses.

There are still saves in 4E, It is a roll 10 or higher on a d20 to throw off on ongoing effect (i.e. sleep, hold, slow, ongoing damage, etc). They usually come into play after you have already 'hit' the opponent with spell that beat their defenses, or sometimes happen even on a miss, sans damage.

Personally, I think the idea that you don't bother to roll saves at all for minions has the most merit, you just assume that they are effected for the encounter and move on. It is simple and streamlined, much better than a 3E-esque solution of: minions have plus this and minus this under these conditions. If you are going to bother to roll the save at all, might as well just treat it like a normal save.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Right, but AFAIK there are no saving throws; they've been replaced with defenses.

I think he's talking about the saving throws as in "5 ongoing poison damage (save ends)" or "immobilized (save ends)", i.e. the plain d20 rolls against 10 to shake off an ongoing condition.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Jer]

Remember - saving throws occur after damage is dealt. So, in the event of an ability that does no damage initially then some kind of damage (save ends) ability tacked on, the minion will be dead anyway. The save cannot save them.

Is this always the case? That if an effect allows a save and causes damage it always does the damage first, then you save for the condition? That we're never going to have things where you make a save that stops the damage and the condition? That would be a slick rule - I just didn't realize that was the way it was designed.

If that's always the case then I'm totally on board with "no saves for minons". I really don't see a downside.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Is this always the case? That if an effect allows a save and causes damage it always does the damage first, then you save for the condition? That we're never going to have things where you make a save that stops the damage and the condition? That would be a slick rule - I just didn't realize that was the way it was designed.

Say you have something like this:
+9 vs. AC; 1d8+3 damage (crit 1d8+11) and ongoing 5 necrotic damage (save ends).

When your turn comes up, you first take the 5 damage. Then you do your Minor, Move, and Standard Actions. Then you roll your saving throw to throw off the effect.

 

[darkInertia]

You take ongoing damage at the start of your turn. You make saving throws at the end of your turn. "You" means the person afflicted by the effect, not by the attacker who put the effect on you. So for minions, any ongoing damage would probably kill them outright (most low-level minions die when they take 1 point of damage).

From the DDE pregen wizard (link on main page):

Sleep
Daily - Arcane, Implement, Sleep
Standard Action - Area burst 2 within 20 squares
Target: each creature in burst
Attack: +5 vs. Will
Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends).
Miss: The target is slowed (save ends).

So, the combat would go like this:

1) Wizard's Turn: casts sleep and rolls +5 vs. Will save. He hits and affects 2 minions (minion A and minion B), out of 4 total.

2) Minions' Turn: All of the minions are slowed. They all take their actions. At the end of their turn, they roll d20. If they roll 10 or higher, they made their save

Minion A makes his save: He is no longer slowed. He no longer has to make saving throws.
Minion B fails his save: He becomes unconscious. Each round, at the end of his turn, he rolls a saving throw to see if he wakes up.
Minion C makes his save: He is no longer slowed. He no longer has to make saving throws.
Minion D fails his save: He is still slowed. Each round, at the end of his turn, he rolls a saving throw to resist the slowed condition.

Finally, note that from the orcs preview that "a missed attack never damages a minion." However, I'm reading this as immunity to damage (whether ongoing or immediate). I'm assuming that minions can still be effected by other status effects from missed powers (such as the slow effect of a missed sleep).