Minions are alien visitors from another kind of game

[Pickles JG]

1st: nice reasoning irda
What i would have liked is a minion template, which increases the Level of a monster by 8 and makes appropriate changes...

Increase attacks & all defences by 8. Lose all abilities except basic attack (& any racial abilities that make sense). Take the maximum damage inflicted as the fixed damage now inflicted. Done. (But why bother?)

They did recommend against moving things by more than 4 levels, I do not think this applies to minions, who lack special attacks.

 

[The_Fan]

Maybe it's just me, but I LIKE the cinematic style, and I like the minion rules. In my playtest, after cleaving through hordes of kobolds, one of my players hit one that didn't get one-shotted. His response was to shout "AHA! A worthy opponent!"

THAT is the reason for minions.

They actually can HELP immersion in practice. The players feel a sense of power as they cleave through them, but that gets old after a while. When one stands out from the crowd and takes it like a man, they focus in on him, recognizing that he is a worthy adversary. How many times do fantasy heroes do the same thing?

 

[ShockMeSane]

Increase attacks & all defences by 8. Lose all abilities except basic attack (& any racial abilities that make sense). Take the maximum damage inflicted as the fixed damage now inflicted. Done. (But why bother?)

They did reccomend against moving things by more than 4 levels, I do not think this applies to minions, who lack special attacks.

I'm not sure why you'd do this. It would make Kobold Minions level 9, and before that, they would be hellaciously hard to hit and would barely miss. The idea behind minion design is that they are appropriate for the level you encounter them, not that you miss them 70% of the time... that's just boring.

I'm sure there will be plenty of minions (or design your own based on stats available for an appropriate level minion) to deal with at level appropriate ranges. I sure as heck don't want my PC's killing a cavern full of non-minion kobolds at level 1 and then have to deal with them as a credible threat nearly an entire tier of adventuring later. The minions we have seen generally mesh with the level range of the monsters in their category. Going up 8 levels just seems needlessly... erm... wrong.

 

[ozprince]

I think minions single HP is a great idea for that story/cinematic feel.

Is not a new thing though. In the rpg Bushido they had this idea of single hit point extras, and Bushido came out 28 years ago on 1980.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Irda: Would minions having 1/4 the hp of a monster their level be much better?

If no, then it seems to me that you really have hit your reasons for disliking minions in the OP. I think minions were supposed to represent enemies that break the 4-Factor lockstep. Why? Mowing down mooks of greatly lower level who pose no credible threat is boring to many. Mowing down mooks of credible threat with really low hp is more fun in my mind. I can see where you are coming from thpugh and I think they are alien visitors. I just think they are friendly aliens. Do you have an issue with double and quadruple hp elites and solos?

If yes, than the real issue is the shortcut and the patch.
Minions represent a shortcut. They represent Creatures that could withstand multiple hits from the lesser unavoidable ablative-defense damage, but cannot take a single avoidable hit on a consistent basis. I just don't have the math to back this up.

 

[N0Man]

Take the example of a Ranger power that does Dex on a Miss. That power really reads "You do Dex on a Miss, unless your opponent is a Minion, in which case you do no damage." You need a special case exception to every rule in D&D that involves HP (which, in D&D, is a whole lot of rules). This probably increase the number of rules you have to know by 30% or more - just to cover the special case of "unless the target is a Minion."

I think Minions are a great addition, but here's the thing... if you are a DM, you decide what the encounters are. If you want no Minions, then don't use Minions. Easy.

However, I don't understand the above statement. That's not a bunch of special cases added, it's "misses don't cause damage to minions". The Player doesn't even need to know the rule. He looks at *his* character sheet, rolls, and says, "I miss, but I still do X damage". The DM knows it's a minion (or sees on the character sheet), ah, Minions don't take damage from misses," at which time the DM either can tell him it's a Minion and doesn't take damage, or he can even choose to describe the blow as striking but ineffectual.

Now the spellcaster comes along, casts an AOE spell that does half damage on a miss, tells the GM they missed but dealt Y damage, and the DM again sees it's a minion and realizes it does no damage, because misses don't deal it damage. Still, 1 rule that applies.

It's pretty simple, in my opinion. As a DM, you don't even have to bog the players down with the mechanics or even let them know it's a minion. Pretend to make a tally of the damage, and describe it as a minor wound and move on.

In reality, it's just one tool in the toolbox that 4E gives you, and if you don't like the tool, leave it in the toolbox. It's definitely not required to use it if you create your own encounters. Personally I plan to use the whole range from Minion to Elite. I love the system. It makes it more flexible, and can make combat more vibrant and exciting.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm against the minions, personally. As I said before, a whole crowd of one-hit-kills isn't cinematic or awesome, it's filler. Most of my players would be bored rotten if they had to run through a crowd of red shirts.

Personally, I find epic and exciting battles aren't when the players have to kill a whole lot of enemies. I find things to be MUCH more awesome when there's only a few enemies, but all of them radically different and powerful.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'm against the minions, personally. As I said before, a whole crowd of one-hit-kills isn't cinematic or awesome, it's filler. Most of my players would be bored rotten if they had to run through a crowd of red shirts.

Personally, I find epic and exciting battles aren't when the players have to kill a whole lot of enemies. I find things to be MUCH more awesome when there's only a few enemies, but all of them radically different and powerful.

That's fine, but realize that minions give DMs options. If you don't want to use them, fine. But many DMs will want to use them. Used in moderation, I think they're going to be great for my games, enabling certain cinematic situations that previous editions could not handle easily.

So with minions in the game, the DMs who like them can use them, while the DMs who don't can ignore them. But they provide an important option that really wasn't there before.

I have never used psionics in my campaigns - I have a dislike for psionics in a fantasy world. This does not mean that I don't think D&D should have psionics rules, or that I complain that D&D has psionics. I don't like them, so I don't use them.

 

[Pale Jackal]

Maybe it's just me, but I LIKE the cinematic style, and I like the minion rules. In my playtest, after cleaving through hordes of kobolds, one of my players hit one that didn't get one-shotted. His response was to shout "AHA! A worthy opponent!"

THAT is the reason for minions.

That's pretty awesome.

I'm against the minions, personally. As I said before, a whole crowd of one-hit-kills isn't cinematic or awesome, it's filler. Most of my players would be bored rotten if they had to run through a crowd of red shirts.

Are they still bored if they are in real danger of being killed by these red shirts? I should hope not.

That's one thing I like about minions, they're low HP creatures with high (relatively-speaking) damage. One less thing I have to hand-wave, and I think it's good 4E has 'officialized' the concept.

It also helps (officially) keep monsters the same species. I know another poster mentioned an ogre mage and goblins... ignoring the fact that goblins do diddly for damage, I'm not a fan of "monster of the week" type play. I appreciate anything that decreases the incidence of Displacer Beasts hanging out with the Dog-That-Shoot-Bees-From-His-Mouth. (I'm sure 4E will still have a lot of that, especially since monsters have unique abilities... but oh well. )

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Most of my players would be bored rotten if they had to run through a crowd of red shirts.

Some players are bored if they CAN'T do that. Your position seems to me less of a problem with minionism but rather seeing the need for it.