Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've noticed that clustering monsters together (minions or otherwise) is a great way to make the wizard in your group look like a god. If the minions cluster, they die. The trick is to position enemies far enough apart to discourage AoE, but still close enough that they can charge to each other's assistance. You probably don't want more than one monster's worth of minions in most fights, since large numbers will force them to cluster.

Unless your wizard rolls like crap.

In our last D&D 4 session, we fought a homebrewed solo abyssal ghoul that could summon Minions (Ghuls) as minor action... Boy were we surrounded fast, and did the Wizard miss often! The Paladin and the Warlord were flanking the Abyssal Ghoul, and the Wizard hat to thunderweave himself (with Arcana Reach) to keep clear of the minions constantly summoned around him.

 

[Runestar]

Did you notice how well your PCs had to roll to do that?

Fairly average.

The fighter had a base to-hit of +7 (+3 prof, +1 focus, +3 str). The cleric had started off with a divine glow, granting everyone else +2 to-hit. He easily hit the 1st minion with cleave, then promptly KO'ed another adjacent one (since the secondary hit does not require an attack roll). The wizard had no problems hitting their crap fort defenses of 11 either.

Admitably, their starting positions are somewhat different from the suggested scenario in the DMG, so that might have contributed to them being more vulnerable.

 

[satori01]

Perhaps I had house ruled my own "minion" style rules in 3.5 by having level appropriate monsters w/ lower CON or HP in general so they went down faster, but still had a chance to hit. Given all of the buff spells available.....it was not hard to make the Lower level mobs able to be able to hit the players.

In 4e, Minions are an interesting element. Genius almost, except for I have a hard time swallowing the concept of a 20th level minion. I know the point has been addressed regarding the concept of internal consistency and versimilitude for the rules: 3.5 has an inner logic that binds things together, 4e is more like stage work, what matters is what is on the stage and ignore the man behind the curtain.

As the man behind the curtain, I like but am baffled at the same time....as an aside 4e could never give rise to an Order of the Stick like world where the characters talk of the rules like we do of natural properties.

I like Zombie minions, I can deal with Ogre Minions at higher level......though we kinda of get back to an 1e feel of graduating from monsters as you go up, which I purposefully went away from in 3.5 (that orc might be an Barbarian/Blackguard or he could be a 1 level warrior, only the DM knows) which I think helped players treat every encounter as an individual experience.

1 thing I do not like though is the Legion Devil. In 3.5 individually they were weak, but put them in a group and the shared hit points and bonuses to hit started to acrue. Now they are less than that....which is a shame.

 

[Mengu]

In our 14th level 3.5 game, we just fought an evil Druid, accompanied by a T-Rex companion, an Iron Golem, a wyrmling Red Dragon, and 4 Fire Giants. The Fire Giants went down in one or two rounds each. They would certainly have been minions in 4e. When we were lower level, one of our toughest fights was against a Fire Giant. So it's not so much a matter of what a monster really is, but how the DM wants to represent it in any given fight.

I see the addition of minions as a parallel to the scrapping of multiple attacks, and long lasting spell/ability bonuses. For instance our 14th level hasted ranger with favored enemy giants, a holy weapon, and the bard singing +3/+3, was getting 6 attacks (typically hitting with all of them, some being criticals), and taking down about 1 giant a turn. In 4e, the same ranger would get 2 attacks against the giant minion, one of which would hit, and take it down with no additional dice rolls needed. Same result, significantly faster resolution.

4e has the design philosophy of finding the fastest resolution method to get to the desired end result. Minions are just one other design feature to satisfy that philosophy.

 

[Starbuck_II]

On the one hand I think 'give the PC's a chance to wipe out something in one hit' and on the other hand I'm thinking '1hp for a 20th lvl minion... and the bartender in town has like 15?!??!'

Can someone justify to me why I should keep minions to that measely 1hp? In fact, why use minions at all? Why not just replace them with real creature (take away 4 minions add a real one like the DMG says (I believe))?

Because sometimes you want there to be more enemies and the battle still beatable.
10 enemies at level 1 is not beatable unless some are minions. TPKs happen otherwise (see multiple posts about Keep on ShadowFell module).

Before you guys rush in, can anyone tell me in both mechanical combat terms why I should keep them, and *also* how the hell do you explain this in a roleplaying or 'realism' sense? (note that 'realism' is different from 'realistic' and we all know D&D isn't supposed to be 'real' blah blah let's not go there).

Mechanically, it helps fill the battlefield while retaining the ability to affect the battle.
Minions hurt just as much if not more than the standard ones (minions rarely deal one damage so that helps; though they don't Crit it seems).
4 x 4 or 1d8 +2: 16 damage or average 6.
Trust me, four minions ganking you will hurt more.

Realism: The Minions are just as well trainwed, but luck just isn't in the stars for them. They don't hav the divine fortune or ability to urn deadl blows into lesser ones (you do realize since 1st Edition/according to Gygax, hps are just turning deadly blows into lesser, luck, etc)

*PS, my own DM who's running KotSF has already decided to give minions more than 1hp because 'it makes no sense' but he has almost no clue about the rules at all for 4th edition so his opinion is 'questionable' at this point.

Whoa, that would make the battle too rough.
Think about it, the only difference between a Kobold Skirmisher and Kobold Minion is hps and exp.
If you only change hp, than you have guys with same hps and different exp. That is a bad expereince waiting to happen.

I mean, for the player you get gipted on Exp if he only changes hps. And as a DM, he might send more than he should against you.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Perhaps I had house ruled my own "minion" style rules in 3.5 by having level appropriate monsters w/ lower CON or HP in general so they went down faster, but still had a chance to hit. Given all of the buff spells available.....it was not hard to make the Lower level mobs able to be able to hit the players.

In 4e, Minions are an interesting element. Genius almost, except for I have a hard time swallowing the concept of a 20th level minion. I know the point has been addressed regarding the concept of internal consistency and versimilitude for the rules: 3.5 has an inner logic that binds things together, 4e is more like stage work, what matters is what is on the stage and ignore the man behind the curtain.

As the man behind the curtain, I like but am baffled at the same time....as an aside 4e could never give rise to an Order of the Stick like world where the characters talk of the rules like we do of natural properties.

I like Zombie minions, I can deal with Ogre Minions at higher level......though we kinda of get back to an 1e feel of graduating from monsters as you go up, which I purposefully went away from in 3.5 (that orc might be an Barbarian/Blackguard or he could be a 1 level warrior, only the DM knows) which I think helped players treat every encounter as an individual experience.

1 thing I do not like though is the Legion Devil. In 3.5 individually they were weak, but put them in a group and the shared hit points and bonuses to hit started to acrue. Now they are less than that....which is a shame.

Monster tailoring is even more extensive in 4th edition. You think you surprise your party with a Barbarian/Blackguard orc? That surprise is nothing compared to some freak kobold with strange abilities that can't be attributed to just kobolds.

4th edition threw any idea of assumption about a given creature out the window. Creatures do all kinds of strange things. There is no assumption about any creature now. If you're level 20 and a group of kobolds stand in your way, do not assume an easy fight. You are in serious trouble. Those kobolds are going to hand you your behind if you don't fight like their real enemies.

 

[Ninja-to]

This is one of the better threads I've read in a while. Nice posts by all.

One last minor quibble. Someone mentioned earlier a minion being ravagged by a house cat.

Now while I understand a high level minion will have crazy defenses and to hit bonuses... if that house cat rolled a 20 and scored a hit (which is after all not *that* unlikely), well, you can see the image there. Which leaves you with the possibility of say 5% of the time house cats (or any creature imaginable that can do 1 damage) able to take out epic demonic minions. This isn't just a silly waste of forum space. Think about the very plausible chance of a bad NPC taking on the PC's in a tavern, and bringing his epic demonic minions with him, only to have one of them taken out by the bar parrot mascot with a single lucky peck...

Hmm. Would it be going too far to stretch the earlier assumption that minions only have 1hp when they fight PC's? I don't mind making that quick adjustment. But what happens when an epic minion goes up against Felix or Garfield...? Should I suddenly drop more hp's on them?

 

[Harlander]

In that case, I'd simply not have the 1-hp-dealing critter attack the fire-wreathed demons from the utmost nightmares of untold depravity. Your example was a housecat - such a beast would probably have the good sense to quit the scene upon the arrival of the Dark Lord McGee and his infernal mooks.

 

[Goumindong]

Which leaves you with the possibility of say 5% of the time house cats (or any creature imaginable that can do 1 damage) able to take out epic demonic minions.

Why did you let one of your player play a housecat?

 

[Ninja-to]

Nah the housecat is just an innocent bystander angry at being woken up by Orcus's peon.