Minor Image ruling

[werk]

Fish get tremorsense?



Just say that you hate rules and illusions and are trying to cause trouble...

 

[RigaMortus2]

It isn't a question of looks; fish and some other aquatic animals actually detect the movements of water with a special sensory organ (usually called the lateral organ.) It isn't sonar - that is something else entirely.

In game terms I guess the lateral sense would probably be closest to tremorsense, although it shouldn't be that powerful.

If you want to add that level of realism into a game (the phisiology of fish), go for it. I don't believe there are any special rules on aquatic creatures able to detect illusions in the MM. I could be wrong as I don't use a lot of aquatic creatures, nor am I often the DM

 

[pallandrome]

personally, I'd rule that tremor sense is close to tactile, so I'd allow the save then, but not merely by seeing water displacement. That is easily covered under visual effects.

Mistwell: I was merely attempting to inject some levity into the proceedings. And as they are both discussions of how illusion spells work, I would not say that they are THAT off topic. However, I'll not continue with the inquiry if it bothers you.

 

[Mistwell]

I interpret "interact with" in that you are doing something to directly try to affect the illusion. More often than not, this is done by attempting to attack it, cast a spell on it, or touch it in some way (or try and walk through it). I allow the caster to manipulate the illusion in such a way that if the illusion were to interact with an actual object, it looks like it is doing exactly that (assuming it is within the area of the illusion).

I agree. When a living thing does something to move an object (like an arrow or a sword) into the illusion, or touches it, then that living thing has interacted and gets a save. When an inanimate object that was not moved at the illusion by the opponant in question touches the illusion, the illsion should be maintained as if it properly interacts with the inanimate object.

Otherwise you get into all sorts of wacky decisions like "did a leaf fall onto the illusion" and "does the wind kick up dirt particles onto the illusion" and "does the laps of waves found in the ocean interact with the illusion". Nature, on it's own, doesn't give an opponant a save just because it happens to interact with the illusion. Creatures who cause such things to happen do get a save however.

 

[Aristeas]

I think 'interacted with' means any time that the illusion would need to respond to stimulus, which it is unable to do, or the world should react to it.

In that case, under what circumstances can one disbelieve a Ghost Sound? Say, the illusion of a harp being played somewhere in the distance. The illusion doesn't have a location or a visible manifestation, so there doesn't seem to be any way to interact with it in that sense. Maybe you get a save if you try to follow the sound back to its source and there isn't a harp there?

 

[werk]

In that case, under what circumstances can one disbelieve a Ghost Sound? Say, the illusion of a harp being played somewhere in the distance. The illusion doesn't have a location or a visible manifestation, so there doesn't seem to be any way to interact with it in that sense. Maybe you get a save if you try to follow the sound back to its source and there isn't a harp there?

I guess I don't understand how you could literally interact with a ghost sound. I think that would be a case of a character actually having to say, "I try to disbelieve what I'm hearing."

As an example, The ghost sound is placed in a 'haunted ballroom' of 20 people talking, laughing, etc. When the party approaches the locked doors, they can hear people having a ball on the other side. Once they open the door and enter the room, there are no ballgoers, but the sound is still there. Either the characters are nuts or they 'can't believe their ears.' That's the point I would consider it interacted with. They could try to disbelieve while outside of the doors, but it's not the auto-will save that they should get from interaction.

So I think I agree with you.

 

[IndyPendant]

Hey, wait, what? No dissenting voices? No controversy?!?

...This is the ENWorld Rules forum, right...?

Umm, er, well...I disagree! Yeah! I think interaction involves percieving the illusion through the appropriate senses! So if you observe a visual illusion, hear a Ghost Sound, etc etc, you get a save to Disbelieve! That's a perfectly *cough* reasonable *cough* interpretation!

(*That* oughta get the arguments going. Gotta make my prediction come true! I'm psychic, dammit!!! : )

 

[MACLARREN]

That's how we ruled it is when the sound was heard, the creatures received a save as it called for with the interaction. Our thoughts were that it was affecting one of the senses and yielded a save. Interpretations can be argued in many different ways as the spell doesn't clearly state how they want you to do it and it appears as though they left the decision to the DM to decide. Received the feedback I thought I'de get here though and good points from everyone. I can definately see that I myself have been missing the boat by not utilizing Illusion spells more often. Thanks

 

[RigaMortus2]

I agree. When a living thing does something to move an object (like an arrow or a sword) into the illusion, or touches it, then that living thing has interacted and gets a save. When an inanimate object that was not moved at the illusion by the opponant in question touches the illusion, the illsion should be maintained as if it properly interacts with the inanimate object.

Otherwise you get into all sorts of wacky decisions like "did a leaf fall onto the illusion" and "does the wind kick up dirt particles onto the illusion" and "does the laps of waves found in the ocean interact with the illusion". Nature, on it's own, doesn't give an opponant a save just because it happens to interact with the illusion. Creatures who cause such things to happen do get a save however.

I think we are in agreeance here. Nice working with you.