Mirror Image + Displacement

[KarinsDad]

Well, if the images aren't supposed to get the game-mechanic advantages of other spells, then the wizard should be displaced, but the images should be normal, because being invisible and having a displaced image are both part of the Displacement spell. The images shouldn't get the invisibility and not the displaced image. It's neither or both. If neither, then if the wizard casts invisibility, the images should remain visible. However, this is counter to the spell's description, which indicates that an invisible caster has invisible images. So this seems to indicate that spell effects that alter the caster's appearance have the same effect on his images. That would include displacement.

Except that Displacement does not alter his appearance.

It alters the location of his appearance.

I would have no problem with Mirror Images of a Displaced Wizard appearing normally.

I have a problem with them being "Displaced". That is nonsensical and it also does not follow the targeting rules.

As for invisibility, that IS the actual appearance of the wizard at the time, just like Alter Self.

He appears invisible.

See Invisible does not make him look visible (to the target of See Invisible), it just allows the target to see an image of where the invisible creature actually is: "Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures."

Of course, displacement is not "invisibility plus displaced image". You can't break up a spell effect that way unless it's specifically called out. Otherwise See Invisibility would see through Displacement, which it does not. Displacement makes the caster look as though he's 2 feet away from where he actually is. He's not invisible, he just looks like he's somewhere that he's not. And his images look like they're somewhere that they're not too. This is not a paradox, because the images cast by mirror image are at least partly magical constructions, not just visual effects, since you can destroy them by attacking them. The images look like they're about 2 feet away of where the caster-shaped magical effect is. True seeing would reveal not only the true location of those caster-shaped effects, but also which of the caster-shaped things is the true caster.

That's why I used the term "(effectively) invisible".

You cannot see a Displaced Wizard. He is not invisible, but then again, you cannot see him either.

You can see the Displaced "appearance" of the Wizard.

But, Mirror Images does not state that it emulates the apparent movement of the appearance of the target, it emulates what the target looks like.

And yes, that is a paradox (not that we do not accept paradoxes in the rules, we do).

 

[Jack Simth]

From the SRD, "Magic Items: Creating Potions":

Oops. Nevermind then.

 

[KarinsDad]

Absolutely. Which is why Magic Missile doesn't work on Mirror Images in my game!

Magic Missile does not work on Mirror Images in the rules anyway.

You can target the images all you want, but any missile that you target against an image fails completely because it is an invalid target.

Ditto for any other spell that targets a creature and is targeted against an image instead.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Magic Missile does not work on Mirror Images in the rules anyway.

You can target the images all you want, but any missile that you target against an image fails completely because it is an invalid target.

Ditto for any other spell that targets a creature and is targeted against an image instead.

That's my point.

But it seems most people consider Magic Missile a fantastic anti-MI spell, and allow it to target and destroy the figments.

The FAQs don't help:
3E:
Area spells don’t destroy the figments created by the mirror
image spell, but targeted spells do. To determine if a spell is
“targeted,” look at the information that precedes each spell
description. If there is a Target or Targets entry, the spell is
targeted. A spell also is “targeted” if it has an Effect entry and
the effect is a ray or something else that requires a melee or
ranged attack to strike a foe, such as the missile created by the
Melf’s acid arrow spell or the beam of fire from a flame blade
spell.

3.5:
For all intents and purposes, the figments from a foe’s
mirror image spell are your foes. You aim your spells and your
attacks at the figments just as though they were real creatures.
Any spell you can aim at a creature you can aim at an image.
When you use a spell that allows you to select multiple
creatures as targets, such as magic missile, you can choose
multiple images as targets.

I don't see anything in the description of Mirror Image, the Illusion school, the Figment subschool, the definition of Creature, or the Target rules that would allow a spell with a target of 'one or more creatures' to target a figment.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

I don't see anything in the description of Mirror Image, the Illusion school, the Figment subschool, the definition of Creature, or the Target rules that would allow a spell with a target of 'one or more creatures' to target a figment.

-Hyp.

Having peeked my interest, I decided to look up some of these terms. In the glossary, Creature is defined as:

Creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

I could not find an entry for what constitutes a "being" (or "active being"). Certainly constructs and undead are considered creatures, because while they are not living nor objects, they are active beings (one would reasonably assume). So what is an illusion (figment)? It is certainly active, but is it considered a being?

On the other hand... Under "Target and Targets", it says that you can't fire a magic missile at a group of bandits with the instruction to "hit the leader". To strike the leader you have to be able to identify and see the leader (or guess which one the leader is and get lucky). I think that pretty much demonstrates that you can't "pop" the Mirror Images with Magic Missile. Because while you can see the "real" person, you can not identify which one he is. You can guess which one he is, and get lucky, and actually hit him with Magic Missile, but if you guess incorrectly, the spell doesn't go off because the figment is not a legal target for the spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's my point.

But it seems most people consider Magic Missile a fantastic anti-MI spell, and allow it to target and destroy the figments.

Odd.

Well, the RAW targeting rules disagree with them.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So what is an illusion (figment)? It is certainly active, but is it considered a being?

Does it have a Cha or Wis score?

You can guess which one he is, and get lucky, and actually hit him with Magic Missile, but if you guess incorrectly, the spell doesn't go off because the figment is not a legal target for the spell.

Of course, you can split your missiles across multiple possibilities. Most of them will fail, but one might get lucky

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

Of course, you can split your missiles across multiple possibilities. Most of them will fail, but one might get lucky

-Hyp.

But the problem is, if you target something that isn't a legal target OR it becomes an ivalid target, what happens? I always assumed the spell failed. Well with Magic Missile, if you target something that is not a legal target, then wouldn't the entire spell fail? Not just each indivual missile, but the whole spell.

So my guess is you could either:
(a) target all missiles at one Mirror Image, guess right and the spell goes off.
(b) target all missiles at one Mirror Image, guess wrong and the spell fails.
(c) target each missile at seperate targets, and if any of the targets are not legal targets, the whole spell fails.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the problem is, if you target something that isn't a legal target OR it becomes an ivalid target, what happens? I always assumed the spell failed.

I figured if you cast, say, a Mass Hold Person on twenty orcs and one doppelganger (who looks like an orc), the orcs would be affected, but the spell would have no effect on the doppelganger.

So if you split your missiles across four figments and one caster, one missile would strike and deal damage, the other four would fail.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

I figured if you cast, say, a Mass Hold Person on twenty orcs and one doppelganger (who looks like an orc), the orcs would be affected, but the spell would have no effect on the doppelganger.

So if you split your missiles across four figments and one caster, one missile would strike and deal damage, the other four would fail.

-Hyp.

Seems reasonable... But on pg 171 of the PHB, under Spell Failure it says:

If you ever try to cast a spell in coditions where the characteristics of the spell (range, area, or the like) cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is waisted. For example, if you cast charm person on a dog, the spell fails because a dog is the wrong sort of target for the spell.

If you cast Mass Hold Person, and 1 of those targets does not meet the characteristics of the spell, it fails (unless they can be made to conform to the characteristics of the spell).

Example: If you try to cast a Fireball farther than the listed range, the spell will fail. You can use a the Extend Spell feat to double the range, thus making the range you want cast the spell conform with the listed characteristic (rangE) of the spell.