MIrror Image/Illusion question

[stamhaven]

Does melee combat with a someone under the effects of Mirror Image or Greater Invisibility generate a saving-throw per the general illusion rules (under interaction)?

What type of action is disbelieving (AoO?)?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Does melee combat with a someone under the effects of Mirror Image or Greater Invisibility generate a saving-throw per the general illusion rules (under interaction)?

What type of action is disbelieving (AoO?)?

Not all illusions can be disbelieved. Regarding the spells you mentioned, neither Mirror Image nor Greater Invisibility grant a saving throw. Period.

 

[stamhaven]

Not all illusions can be disbelieved. Regarding the spells you mentioned, neither Mirror Image nor Greater Invisibility grant a saving throw. Period.

I know glamers are about 50/50 on which mention disbelief saves but Mirror Image is a figment and every single other figment I've ever found mentions a disbelief save except this one. If mirror image said save: none it'd be clear but it just doesn't adress it. In the absence of an entry I look for a more general rule for that type of spell or other similar spells as examples (all other). The general Illusion mentions disbelieving as a save but isn't specific enough to know which types it applies to and not, while the other examples of figments are overwhelmingly indicating a save.

Without a save or any mundane way to dispel multiples at a time (explicit exception from area effects) it seems over powered to me. I'm just comparing it to things like other figments and for balance issues other defensive glamers like displacement and blur. Blurr lasts longer (though usually will be limited to still just 1 fight) but only has a 20% miss which pales in comparison to the defensive value of the figments. While displacement offers a 50% miss chance, has the same duration, and is higher level is only better than Mirror Image in longer fights (IMO around double the number of figments in rounds depending on the number of attacks). I know that a figment is easier to hit than with blurr or displacement but dex (for some strange reason since it implies jumping out of the way of attacks on behalf of your figments) still helps. With a save the power level gets toned down considerably and seems more reasonible in my opinion especially at higher levels. Wizards seem stuck with this spell trying to keep it true to it's first edition roots with the stuff about physical hits dispelling other illusions and such, but the easy way to do that would be to make them out of shadow so that actual contact with it could reasonibly have a tangeble effect.

I've seen nothing but rudeness and hasty (and faulty) replies to the same question on the wizards' board. I'm hoping for some courteous opinions on the subject or a mention of an eratta/official ruling I'd not seen from here.

 

[Murrdox]

Well, the basic fact is that Mirror Image has no save. There is no way for you to "disbelieve" the images.

That's because the images vanish as soon as something strikes one of them. There is an inherant weakness built into the spell. If you could disbelieve the images, then the spell wouldn't be useful at all at higher levels. As it stands, Mirror Image is a wonderful wizard defensive spell. Why you want to take that away from them I have no idea.

I admit that it might not fit in the rules, and you are right... most glamers do allow saves. But Mirror Image is an odd spell rule-wise, and pretty unique, so it's no surprise.

Look at it this way... if you have access to a magic item that grants True Seeing, you are immune to the effects of Mirror Image, or you can simply CLOSE YOUR EYES.

Yup, that's right. Close your eyes. You are subject to the 50% miss chance, but if the wizard has 8 images, your odds are much better when blind than trying to figure out which figment is the wizard. If you intentionally blind yourself, you have no chance of hitting a figment, you only have a 50% miss chance period.

 

[Voadam]

One way to rationalize the no listed save (although IMO it should say save none) is that any targeted interaction (an attack) would normally grant a save if the figment still existed after the attack. The spell has a built in safeguard to prevent that, when it is interacted with the figment copy is destroyed instantly and automatically so there is nothing actually there to interact with and so no basis to generate a save.

A little stretch for an explanation, but it fits.

 

[Urbannen]

The spell should be a Glamer, not a Figment.

 

[Voadam]

The spell should be a Glamer, not a Figment.

Invisibility is a glamer.

Why do you think mirror image should be a glamer?

from the srd:

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Stamhaven, I apologize if my reply seemed curt. It certainly wasn't meant that way.

That said, it is still my understanding that Mirror Image doesn't grant any sort of disbelief save, or save of any kind. However, regarding removing the spell altogether, I believe a Dispel Magic targetting the Mirror Image spell would work admirably.

 

[Nail]

Mirror Image doesn't allow a save for disbelief, as once you've interacted with it, it disappears. No save necessary.

Simple enough.

What more interesting, is how few questions illusion spells (other than invisibility) generate. My hypothesis: it's a weak school.

 

[Voadam]

Mirror Image doesn't allow a save for disbelief, as once you've interacted with it, it disappears. No save necessary.

Simple enough.

What more interesting, is how few questions illusion spells (other than invisibility) generate. My hypothesis: it's a weak school.

However, normally interacting with part of an illusion and piercing it would entitle you to see through the whole illusion (sticking a polearm through part of an illusory wall allows you to see through the whole wall). In mirror image it is one illusion, but multiple figments and interacting with one part of the illusion does not break the other figments.