MIrror Image/Illusion question

[Hypersmurf]

Also, Hyper, when you talk of the Sage's "suggestion", are you talking about the suggestion that all the images of the Mirror Image always reside in the same square as the caster?

Yes.

This is how we play Mirror Image, because the text of the spell (especially the wording in 3.5) implies that is how it is supposed to be done.

I strongly disagree.

The whole phrase "each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you" is completely superfluous if they intended every image to reside in the caster's square... and a notably lacking phrase from the spell description is "every image resides in the caster's square".

The description is that they remain in "a cluster". This is not a game-defined term, so the spell defines exactly what "a cluster" means when relating to MI figments - each image must be within 5 feet of at least one other.

This could result in "a cluster" that resembles a straight line... but Brownian motion suggests that to be unlikely

Also, the spell gives no information on where the images end up if they DON'T end up in the same square as the caster. Does the DM get to decide how the images arrange themselves?

Certainly. As you say, it says nothing about the caster being able to control their placement.

If the images are spread out, and all the images are hit by a fireball, but the caster is not, suddenly everyone knows who the wizard is, since the images won't react as if being hit by the fireball, since the wizard wasn't.

"Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball)."

The figments react to being hit by a fireball. Not "after the caster is hit by a fireball", but after they are hit by a fireball.

Even the Sage admits that assuming they're in the same square doesn't follow the wording of the spell:

"Although the spell description says the images from a
mirror image spell always stay within 5 feet of either the user
or another image, it’s easiest to assume that all the images
occupy the same space the spell user occupies."

The wording of the spell certainly doesn't prohibit the images from ending up in the same square as the caster... but neither is it required, to still comply with the text.

-Hyp.

 

[Urbannen]

Figments don't however, have the Mind-Affecting descriptor, and can fool Undead and Constructs. If the Construct makes a Will Save upon interacting with the figment, he can see through it.

Despite the fact that Constructs are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.

Therefore, figments are not mind-affecting.

-Hyp.

I never said that in game terms they are "Mind-Affecting." In practical terms, there is a mental component, unless you consider perception to be unrelated to the mind. The figment acts on the perceptions of the observer. It has no objective reality itself, as say does a Wall of Force.

Well, maybe a Figment could be described as a magical force that affects the perceptions of those that observe it?

 

[Nail]

What a wacky spell.....

A second level "displacement" effect. Greater, even.

 

[two]

Yes

{What a wacky spell.....

A second level "displacement" effect. Greater, even.}

That's my thought as well, everytime anyone says "hey, don't want to hit one of the five illusionary images? Simply close your eyes, granting the wizard the spell effects of greater displacement, plus making yourself more vulnerable to all kinds of attacks (because you are blind). Except, granted, gaze attacks..."

So, "best case," Mirror Image is as "good" as displacement, but wait! It's even better! You can get "Dominated" while displaced (as the spell), because you can still be targeted by spells, but not when Mirror Imaged (the Dominate might target a figment). There is a good percentage chance that your will not be dominated, in other words.

And lasts 10/min a level!

And is only 2nd level!

Wow! Sign me up!

(Personally, I use this spell so much it's sick. No downside. Start of combat, "My character casts mirror image." Consequently, my character is rarely targeted by spells, since nobody likes that "miss chance," ditto melee and ranged. It's the "go beat on somebody else" spell.)

 

[stamhaven]

So, "best case," Mirror Image is as "good" as displacement, but wait! It's even better! You can get "Dominated" while displaced (as the spell), because you can still be targeted by spells, but not when Mirror Imaged (the Dominate might target a figment). There is a good percentage chance that your will not be dominated, in other words.

And the defense is not limited to "Dominate" spells, but also any spell with individual targets. Would spells like charm person or even finger of death even destroy an image (not that any wizard would likely try any of these spells on someone while they're under the effects of MI which almost forces an area dispel or wasted magic missle or two in a wizard deul)?

And lasts 10/min a level!

I think it's actually 1min/level but that's still way better than the Displacement duration, and matches Blur.

Anyone know of an official rule for what constitutes "careful study" under the disbelief description and an action type for it? (free, standard, move, full round, Distraction AoO)

 

[Voadam]

And the defense is not limited to "Dominate" spells, but also any spell with individual targets. Would spells like charm person or even finger of death even destroy an image (not that any wizard would likely try any of these spells on someone while they're under the effects of MI which almost forces an area dispel or wasted magic missle or two in a wizard deul)?




I think it's actually 1min/level but that's still way better than the Displacement duration, and matches Blur.

Anyone know of an official rule for what constitutes "careful study" under the disbelief description and an action type for it? (free, standard, move, full round, Distraction AoO)

It is one minute per level

Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.
Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.
An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)


I haven't been able to find anything in the srd on "studied carefully" but I would assume it takes longer than a free action and feel that a full round action drawing an AoO is appropriate.

Using the search skill to search a 5x5 area is a full round action and that seems analogous to me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Anyone know of an official rule for what constitutes "careful study" under the disbelief description and an action type for it? (free, standard, move, full round, Distraction AoO)

Mirror Image is not subject to disbelief, even if you study it carefully.

Strictly by the rules as written, Magic Missile should have no effect, since it targets "one or more creatures", and a figment is not a creature. According to the rules for targetting, if you choose an inappropriate target for a spell, the spell has no effect.

-Hyp.

 

[stamhaven]

Mirror Image is not subject to disbelief, even if you study it carefully.

Strictly by the rules as written, Magic Missile should have no effect, since it targets "one or more creatures", and a figment is not a creature. According to the rules for targetting, if you choose an inappropriate target for a spell, the spell has no effect.

-Hyp.

I'm asking about general disbelief with other figments at this point, not just MI. Voadam's (playing the caster of said Mirror Image which inspired the question) the only one who's going to have to live with my house ruling of MI as having a save. I'm just curious about the mechanic for disbelief at this point (it's obvious for interaction but not for the "study" case).

 

[KarinsDad]

Voadam's (playing the caster of said Mirror Image which inspired the question) the only one who's going to have to live with my house ruling of MI as having a save.

Yikes!

Glad I do not play in your game. Mirror Image is one of the few short term protection spells that give a low level arcane spell caster a chance for survival in extremely serious situations. Any player who continually wastes that spell on the first combat of the day is going to wish he didn't at some point in time.

With the lowering of Shield from +7 AC to +4 AC (3.5), there isn't that many really good arcane protection versus combat spells anymore.

A 3rd level wizard has on average 9 hit points with a Con of 10, 18 hit points with a Con of 16 and is typically easy to hit. It only takes a single critical to knock him unconscious with a single shot at that level (not even a critical if he has a low Con). Mirror Image will not prevent him from getting hit, but it will up his odds of not getting hit, at least for a few rounds.

 

[stamhaven]

Yikes!

Glad I do not play in your game. Mirror Image is one of the few short term protection spells that give a low level arcane spell caster a chance for survival in extremely serious situations. Any player who continually wastes that spell on the first combat of the day is going to wish he didn't at some point in time.

With the lowering of Shield from +7 AC to +4 AC (3.5), there isn't that many really good arcane protection versus combat spells anymore.

A 3rd level wizard has on average 9 hit points with a Con of 10, 18 hit points with a Con of 16 and is typically easy to hit. It only takes a single critical to knock him unconscious with a single shot at that level (not even a critical if he has a low Con). Mirror Image will not prevent him from getting hit, but it will up his odds of not getting hit, at least for a few rounds.

Even with the save (and that save only happens after at least a full round of combat or study) I think Voadam will probably still memorize it at least occasionally. The addition of the save after interaction has an even smaller effect during lower levels (as melee foes have a hard time resisting will saves at low levels). It's just too much more powerful than blur in my opinion without a save (since it's even better against enemy spellcasters than vs melee since many spells can miss on a figment and not even "pop" it).

Back to my current question on disbelief in general (study case), any thoughts on what type of action "study" should be (for illusions in general)?