MIrror Image/Illusion question

[KarinsDad]

I know glamers are about 50/50 on which mention disbelief saves but Mirror Image is a figment and every single other figment I've ever found mentions a disbelief save except this one. If mirror image said save: none it'd be clear but it just doesn't adress it. In the absence of an entry I look for a more general rule for that type of spell or other similar spells as examples (all other). The general Illusion mentions disbelieving as a save but isn't specific enough to know which types it applies to and not, while the other examples of figments are overwhelmingly indicating a save.

I think you are looking it in the wrong way.

If a spell does not have a save listed, it has no save.

If a spell does not have spell resistance listed, it has no spell resistance.

If a spell has no range listed, it has no range.

The illusion rules do not override this.


Also, it is extremely easy to overcome the protective value of Mirror Image. The AC for each image tends to be 10 + Dex which tends to fall in the 10 to 14 AC range (for the most part). And, there are from two to eight images (two to five images at low level).

At low level, this means that most opponents will be able to minimally dismiss an image the majority of the time, even if the attack would have normally missed the caster.

Let's take a fairly common example.

Third level Wizard with a Dex of 16 and a Mage Armor (or Shield using 3.5 rules) spell up in addition to 4 images from the Mirror Image spell. He has an AC of 17.

Opponent with a +4 to hit (which is fairly low for an opponent of a third level wizard), one attack per round.


Round one: 48% chance to take out an image, 8% chance to hit Wizard, 44% chance of missing both.

This is about the same as if Mirror Image gave the Wizard a +6 AC.
Round X (once one image is destroyed): 45% chance to take out an image, 10% chance to hit Wizard, 45% chance of missing both.

This is exactly the same as if Mirror Image gave the Wizard a +6 AC.

Round Y (once two images are destroyed): 40% chance to take out an image, 13% chance to hit Wizard, 47% chance of missing both.

This is about the same as if Mirror Image gave the Wizard a +5 AC.

Round Z (once three images are destroyed): 30% chance to take out an image, 20% chance to hit Wizard, 50% chance of missing both.

This is exactly the same as if Mirror Image gave the Wizard a +4 AC.


As can be seen, this is not (at lower levels) that much more overwhelming than the caster casting a Mage Armor or Shield spell (in 3.5, in 3E, a Shield spell would often be a lot more useful than Mirror Image at lower levels).

For a few rounds, the spell is more potent than many other defensive spells, but it quickly starts lowering.

This example also assumed that 2 defensive spells were up (e.g. Mirror Image and Mage Armor).


At higher level, the spell caster gets more images. However, his attackers often get more attacks per round. So, the utility of Mirror Image at higher level starts decreasing. For example, most high level archers can take a Mirror Image spell out completely within 3 rounds (and probably hit the spell caster a few times in the process).

And, there are even low level ways to minimize this like BlindFighting and closing your eyes. In the example above, that would relegate the Mirror Image to a +2 AC bonus for the duration of the spell. Even without blindfighting, closing your eyes lowers the AC adjustment of the example above to +4 (just like a 3.5 Shield spell or a Mage Armor spell).

 

[Urbannen]

Invisibility is a glamer.

Why do you think mirror image should be a glamer?

from the srd:

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

I think there should be a class of illusion that is pure manipulation of light and sound, which Mirror Image seems to be. The closest thing to that is the "Glamer" classification of illusions. Such an illusion type would not have a Will save associated with it, since the illusion would not affect the mind. Mirror Image does not have a save and doesn't affect the mind. As far as I can tell, it is a holographic projection. Glamer = manipulation of light, Figment = mental illusion

 

[Voadam]

I think there should be a class of illusion that is pure manipulation of light and sound, which Mirror Image seems to be. The closest thing to that is the "Glamer" classification of illusions. Such an illusion type would not have a Will save associated with it, since the illusion would not affect the mind. Mirror Image does not have a save and doesn't affect the mind. As far as I can tell, it is a holographic projection. Glamer = manipulation of light, Figment = mental illusion

Figments do not equal mental illusions, that is patterns.

For hologram creation, figments are the way to go. The nature of illusion magic normally allows a will save to pierce an illusion leaving translucent outlines however.

From the srd:

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

 

[stamhaven]

From the SRD:
Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Shadow and Phantasm were left out of the different illusion types listed by Voadam. If WotC wanted doubles that had no save but a specific reaction with physical contact Shadow would have been a clean solution and would support the ruling that you can cleave a MI figment quite well.

I'd argue that the value of MI holds it's own and even increases at higher levels. Even assuming an auto hit on the images, at high levels if the caster gets attacked by a fighter with 5 attacks a round would have a decent chance to destroy 8 images and land 2 hits in 2 rounds of full attacks. Regardless of weather you think it's better or worse than displacement or blurr it's got fantastic value since it WILL prevent hits, short of a dispel magic (area or targeting the MI itself specifically but not a targeted dispell since it's likely to just pop a fig. since they are each targeted seprately),true-seeing. The equivilent bonus fo MI is a sliding miss chance starting at up to 88% (8/9) and sliding down to 50% (1/2) over the cource of up to 8 misses. The benefit to the caster from this spell gets better at high levels when monsters and fighters have much higher attack bonuses and have an easy time hitting even a mage armored/shielded wizard with a high dex.

Also blindfighting should have no effect on MI since the miss chance has nothing to do with concealment (which is what blindfighting helps with) and MI specifically says hearing doesn't help (though I'd let a scent based blindsense or blindsight ignore MI completely). Though the description does send mixed messages since it says both, that sound can't be used to distinguish figment from reality, and that closing your eyes helps.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also blindfighting should have no effect on MI since the miss chance has nothing to do with concealment (which is what blindfighting helps with) and MI specifically says hearing doesn't help (though I'd let a scent based blindsense or blindsight ignore MI completely). Though the description does send mixed messages since it says both, that sound can't be used to distinguish figment from reality, and that closing your eyes helps.

If you close your eyes, you are suffering a Miss Chance due to Concealment, and Blind-Fight helps. Especially since the Blind-Fight feat description says nothing about the feat not working in an area of magical Silence, for example - the fact that you can't distinguish the figments by sound makes no difference. Blind-Fight isn't sound-based.

Of course, if you use the spell as written, rather than the Sage's 'suggestion', you still need to pick a square... because as written, all the figments don't have to be in the caster's square. They only need to be within five feet of the caster or another figment... so conceivably, every figment could be in a different square.

One way to rationalize the no listed save (although IMO it should say save none)...

No, it shouldn't. It's a Personal spell. The target is "You". Personal spells don't have Saving Throw entries.

The only ones that do are those whose Range is "Personal or Touch", or "Personal or Close"... but no spell whose range is simply "Personal" has a saving throw. The target is "You", so the saving throw entry would refer to "You"... not to bystanders.

If people were intended to be able to save to disbelieve Mirror Image, then either:
a/ the spell would mention that in the text, not in the Saving Throw block, since the Saving Throw block would be for the caster in a Personal spell, or
b/ the spell would not be Range: Personal, Target: You; it would instead be Effect: several figments, Saving Throw: Will disbelief.

Have a look at the Sanctuary spell. Target: creature touched. Saving Throw: Will negates.

That's not the saving throw a creature must make to attack the recipient. That's the saving throw the "Creature Touched" gets to avoid having the spell take affect on him when it's cast. The fact that a creature must make a Will save to attack the recipient is defined in the text. It could be a Fort save, or a Reflex save, and the Saving Throw block would still read "Will negates", because that's not the save the Saving Throw block is describing.

-Hyp.

 

[Urbannen]

Figments do not equal mental illusions, that is patterns.

For hologram creation, figments are the way to go. The nature of illusion magic normally allows a will save to pierce an illusion leaving translucent outlines however.

From the srd:

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

I understand how D&D defines these kinds of magic, but Figments do have a mental component. They are not holograms. Consider how they work. Three people encounter the figment of a dire wolf. All three see the same thing. The figment dire wolf is guarding the entrance to a cave. After interacting with the figment, one person makes his Will save. For him and only him, the dire wolf becomes transparent. That person can now see into the cave and spy a frightened gnome illusionist hiding there. His comrades cannot see into the cave, because the Figment of the dire wolf is blocking their view.

If the figment acted as a true hologram, realizing that it was unreal would still not allow you to see through it. Additionally, it does not make a lot of sense to make a Will save to realize that a hologram isn't real. Creatures make Will saves to avoid a magical force that acts upon their minds. A hologram has an existence outside the minds of its observers. The only Illusion spells I can think of that have an existence outside the mind of their observers (i.e., don't allow a save) are most Glamer spells, such as Invisibility and Change Self. Even though an observer might realize a Glamer is in effect, that doesn't mean that he can see through the Glamer.

I think it would make sense to have a class of illusions called Figments, which affect the minds of observers in a similar way, and Glamers, which produce holographic effects.

 

[KarinsDad]

If the figment acted as a true hologram, realizing that it was unreal would still not allow you to see through it.

This is exactly how I play Figments and Glamers in my game (house rule).

If you make the will save, you notice flaws in the illusion. You cannot see through it, however. And, just because you notice the flaws does not necessary mean that you know it is an illusion. It just looks strange to you and more investigation may be necessary. Actual light, sound, heat, etc. is given off, it just doesn't seem right if you make the will save.

In order to get a will save, you have to interact with the illusion, either directly, or by going out of your way to notice something unusual (e.g. Player: "Something doesn't seem right, I look around trying to find a hidden creature." DM: "Make a will save." Player: "Shoot, who is casting at me now? 18" DM: "You notice something wrong with that large rock in front of you. The colors and texture do not look right.").

 

[Voadam]

No, it shouldn't. It's a Personal spell. The target is "You". Personal spells don't have Saving Throw entries.

-Hyp.

Good point, my mistake.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the figment acted as a true hologram, realizing that it was unreal would still not allow you to see through it. Additionally, it does not make a lot of sense to make a Will save to realize that a hologram isn't real. Creatures make Will saves to avoid a magical force that acts upon their minds. A hologram has an existence outside the minds of its observers.

Figments don't however, have the Mind-Affecting descriptor, and can fool Undead and Constructs. If the Construct makes a Will Save upon interacting with the figment, he can see through it.

Despite the fact that Constructs are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.

Therefore, figments are not mind-affecting.

-Hyp.

 

[Murrdox]

If you close your eyes, you are suffering a Miss Chance due to Concealment, and Blind-Fight helps. Especially since the Blind-Fight feat description says nothing about the feat not working in an area of magical Silence, for example - the fact that you can't distinguish the figments by sound makes no difference. Blind-Fight isn't sound-based.

Of course, if you use the spell as written, rather than the Sage's 'suggestion', you still need to pick a square... because as written, all the figments don't have to be in the caster's square. They only need to be within five feet of the caster or another figment... so conceivably, every figment could be in a different square.

Yup. If you have 5 images in front of you... if you want to hit the wizard, and don't care whether or not you hit the images, just close your eyes. Instead of a 80% miss chance (4 out of 5 chance you hit an image), you now have a 50% miss chance, with no chance to hit the images, since once your eyes are closed, you aren't subject to the effects of the illusion.

Also, Hyper, when you talk of the Sage's "suggestion", are you talking about the suggestion that all the images of the Mirror Image always reside in the same square as the caster?

This is how we play Mirror Image, because the text of the spell (especially the wording in 3.5) implies that is how it is supposed to be done.

Also, the spell gives no information on where the images end up if they DON'T end up in the same square as the caster. Does the DM get to decide how the images arrange themselves? The caster? If the caster, what kind of an action is it for him to tell his images where to place themselves? If the images are spread out, and all the images are hit by a fireball, but the caster is not, suddenly everyone knows who the wizard is, since the images won't react as if being hit by the fireball, since the wizard wasn't.

For all these reasons and more, we simply assume that while the images may streak behind the caster as he moves, or lurch in front of him, and swirl around, they always stay within his square while the wizard is taking an action. Otherwise you just run into too many wacky rule situations.