Mirror Image vs Greater Cleave

[billd91]

They really need to revise mirror image. The spell is a quaint idea that causes all sorts of problems and even in an ideal situation is problematic. The fact that you make a set number of images that wink out after being attacked is the key problem. A better mechanic would to be something like blur or displacement that gives a flat % miss chance for the duration.

I believe that's largely what mirror image was intended to be (from way back in 1st edition). It gives the caster a very high chance to be missed that ablates as hits are converted into misses. I believe the mechanics should be clarified to settle the spell into that very mold.
But I have to say, I like the special effect of having multiple, identical images of the caster milling about.
I just think that all of the description applied to the spell and a unfortunate FAQ entry have made this spell a royal pain.

 

[Li Shenron]

This is somewhat hard for me to explain, but it goes into my general concept of mirror image, here's how I play it: When a caster casts Mirror Image, duplicate figments pop out and start playing three-card-monte; that is, you can't tell where the original is and it's all a big mess of images passing through one another.

I only allow targeting of the Mirror Imaged caster, as there is no way to tell which is which and the caster is generally the only valid target. But once the spell is cast, it resolves normally under Mirror Image.

So for Magic Missile, all missiles fired at the target either hit the target or a single figment, destroying it.

So do you basically roll randomly which image (or the real caster) did each missile hit, with no player's control? For instance, if there are 3 images + the real caster and 5 missiles, do you roll 5 times a d4 to see which got hit by each missile? I like this idea.

Usually I have ruled that the caster of MM can choose which image to target, but since it doesn't really make a difference (b/c they're moving & mixing up all the time), this always turned choosing to target as many images as you could, which might have been a bit too good.

I'm not sure about the Great Cleave thing... I thought about this before and said that I would have ruled it not to work. But now I feel like it could be allowed: roll randomly which image you target first, and if you hit, then what happened it is that you either (1) hurt the real caster or (2) popped an image; only in case (2) you get to cleave and repeat, and of course you keep cleaving only if you keep hitting...

But I'm not sure whether my opinion will last until next week

 

[werk]

So do you basically roll randomly which image (or the real caster) did each missile hit, with no player's control? For instance, if there are 3 images + the real caster and 5 missiles, do you roll 5 times a d4 to see which got hit by each missile? I like this idea.

I just roll it once, since there was only one target/one spell (unlike itterative attacks), the MM caster can't target multiple images, he can only target the MI target. All missiles targeted at the MI target hit the same image/target. (I don't like the magic missiles destroys all images route)

Usually I have ruled that the caster of MM can choose which image to target, but since it doesn't really make a difference (b/c they're moving & mixing up all the time), this always turned choosing to target as many images as you could, which might have been a bit too good.

Right, and it raises the problem on targeting invalid targets, which you can't do...

I'm not sure about the Great Cleave thing... I thought about this before and said that I would have ruled it not to work. But now I feel like it could be allowed: roll randomly which image you target first, and if you hit, then what happened it is that you either (1) hurt the real caster or (2) popped an image; only in case (2) you get to cleave and repeat, and of course you keep cleaving only if you keep hitting...

I just want to arbitrate cleave the same as spells, that is, they either hit the caster and work as intended, or they hit an image and are foiled. The mirror image spell effect makes targeting images an exercise in futility, you don't resolve whether it is an image or real during targeting, so what's the piont? The players can only target the MI caster, and the DM resolves success/figment.

 

[Cabral]

This is somewhat hard for me to explain, but it goes into my general concept of mirror image, here's how I play it: When a caster casts Mirror Image, duplicate figments pop out and start playing three-card-monte; that is, you can't tell where the original is and it's all a big mess of images passing through one another.

I only allow targeting of the Mirror Imaged caster, as there is no way to tell which is which and the caster is generally the only valid target. But once the spell is cast, it resolves normally under Mirror Image.

So for Magic Missile, all missiles fired at the target either hit the target or a single figment, destroying it.

With cleave, the target was the caster, if you hit an image, it is destroyed, but your target did not 'drop' so no cleave.

This would be the same for faerie fire, enlarge, or hold/charm. The target is the caster, resolve mirror image after the spell is cast to see the effect.

The problem with this is that it strengthens Mirror Image. For example, the Magic Missile caster could normally decide to spread the Magic Missiles across multiple "targets" to clear out the images.

In retrospect, I don't think there is a problem about the images not being a valid target. You can cast heal on a rock even though it's not really a valid target ... it just fails. Same thing here. If you cast Hold Person on an image, the spell fails.

I'm all for a simplified Mirror Image, but it should have the same strength and versatility that the spell as written has.

 

[werk]

The problem with this is that it strengthens Mirror Image. For example, the Magic Missile caster could normally decide to spread the Magic Missiles across multiple "targets" to clear out the images.

In retrospect, I don't think there is a problem about the images not being a valid target. You can cast heal on a rock even though it's not really a valid target ... it just fails. Same thing here. If you cast Hold Person on an image, the spell fails.

I don't see how that can work, under the rules.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it.

either the figments are invalid targets and the spell doesn't work, as you've said, or the missles do not deal damage to the figments since they are not 'creatures' and magic missle 'has no effect' on inanimate objects...so the images wouldn't poof at all.

I'm not saying my way of playing mirror image is RAW (although I can defend it somewhat using RAW), I'm just saying it seems to relieve every issue I've had with MI so far, like magic missiling images or cleaving off images, so I wanted to share. It all has to do with valid targets and order of resolution of effects.

 

[billd91]

The problem with this is that it strengthens Mirror Image. For example, the Magic Missile caster could normally decide to spread the Magic Missiles across multiple "targets" to clear out the images.

Trouble with this is, it strengthens magic missile (a 1st level spell) against mirror image (a 2nd level spell). I think in earlier editions, we just had the magic missile hit the mirror image caster since he is targetable and the missiles strike unerringly. The illusion fools people, not spells that don't require a roll to hit.
I'm tempted to rule that way again, mainly because there's no roll to hit. Does that strengthen magic missile against mirror image? Only if you assume that the way the rule goes in the FAQ is right in the first place. But it certainly wouldn't allow you to spread the missiles out among the images, instantly negating many of them either.

 

[KarinsDad]

In retrospect, I don't think there is a problem about the images not being a valid target. You can cast heal on a rock even though it's not really a valid target ... it just fails. Same thing here. If you cast Hold Person on an image, the spell fails.

So, if you cast Magic Missile on an image, does it just fail?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, if you cast Magic Missile on an image, does it just fail?

Yep - in a way very similar to casting MM on three targets, one of whom's SR you fail to beat.

 

[Cabral]

I guess to avoid complications, I'm going to have to define the images as creatures

So, since the spell creates figments, when do the opponents get a roll for disbelief?

 

[KarinsDad]

Yep - in a way very similar to casting MM on three targets, one of whom's SR you fail to beat.

Yes, I know this. I was asking the question specifically to Cabal who stated "the Magic Missile caster could normally decide to spread the Magic Missiles across multiple "targets" to clear out the images".

He seemed to be saying that Hold Person would fail, but Magic Missile would not normally fail.