Misdirected Mark and Defenders

[Starfox]

The paladin and swordmage would benefit greatly by having the bard apply their full mark on them form a distance. The fighter and warden not so much. This meshes with the OPs interpretation. Also, both paladins and swordmages have a limit on their number of marks, even if this limit is not expressed as a limit but as a limitation on how they use their marking power. It becomes quite complicated if the bard can add to these marks; you need to keep track of which mark is the bard's and which is the paladin's/Swordmage's. All of this is in favor of the OPs argument.

Still, I do not agree with the OP. I think there needs to be ONE way for Misdirected Mark to work - its workings cannot require this much text analysis. And my reading is that it does indeed activate all marking abilities. This is not from reading the fine print, but from my feeling of what the bard does; it plays on the abilities of his comrades, bringing out the best in each. Another example of this is Forceful Conduit. But this is an opinion, not something I want to present as fact.


I think the text is unclear in the extreme, but whichever way it goes, and I don't think we'll get clarity until we get an official reply, if then.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I don't think anything is unclear: a mark isn't a class feature, it's a condition. Misdirected mark doesn't apply the paladin's or anyone else's mark features. It just makes target X marked by ally Y.

Fighters get benefits against targets they've marked: and so that includes targets they've marked via misdirected mark. However a foe that's far from them won't actually suffer, and often foes near them will already be marked.

Paladins (and swordmages) get the benefit of a second marked target, which is harder for them to achieve normally.

 

[DracoSuave]

All four defenders have completely different ways of dealing the marked condition, and it pays to pay attention to these differences. It's just like how Avengers, Barbarians, and Sorcerers do their damage different ways. Different classes do things differently. This should be intuitive and obvious.

First: How they mark:

Fighters apply the marked condition as a rider to anything they attack, hit or miss. That's all. Nothing more.
Wardens apply a mark to all adjacent enemies as a minor action. That's it. Nothing more. It is not even a power. They just do it.
Paladins have a power that gives the marked condition + an additional effect. They also have other powers that give the marked condition, but do not apply that additional effect.
Swordmages also have a choice between two powers that gives the marked condition + an additional effect.

Second: How they punish the mark's violation:

Fighters respond to the marked condition itself. Anything marked by them gets punished by them for doing certain acts, including attacking a buddy, but -also- including shifting.

Wardens respond to the marked condition itself, with two powers that trigger, one is an attack, the other is a pull. However, they do not respond to movement the way a fighter does.

Paladins and swordmages, however, do not have any powers or features that punish an enemy for violating their marks. However, their primary marking power includes a punishment for violation of the mark. This is where the '+ additional effect' comes into play.

However, Paladins and Swordmage's punishments WILL happen. The Paladin WILL do damage. The swordmage WILL put the shield up, or WILL teleport in flanking position. The attacks from a Fighter or Warden requires an attack roll, and those can be mitigated. (Note: A Warden's pull does not. Sometimes a free attack is not as desirable as slowing them and preventing shifting)

 

[Obryn]

Using this logic, the Paladin can't use Divine Challenge on enemies he marks with Piercing Strike.

This is just silly. Nothing in either ability says that the marks effects only come into play if the mark was placed there by a specific power. Once a target is marked, it's just marked. It's not marked and not marked, it's not some weird half mark, it's just marked.

Swordmages and Paladins each have a power that does two things - (1) mark a target, and (2) whammy that target if they violate that mark.

A Paladin's Piercing Smite marks the foes (and gives them a -2 to hit anyone except the Paladin) - but it doesn't do anything else Divine Challenge does. There's actually no reason to think it would, based on anything you could conclude by reading the Divine Challenge power. In this case, the Paladin marked the foe much like a Cleric would with Healing Strike.

If the Divine Challenge text said something about "any marked foe" rather than "target," this would be a different discussion. But "target" clearly means the power's target, in context.

-O

 

[SabreCat]

I agree with the OP's interpretation.

...But I'm also of the crowd that thinks it would be much much cooler if it worked the other way. ^.^ Maybe a Bard encounter power or daily could do such a thing (if you could figure out how to phrase it); it may be a bit much for an at-will. You don't normally get Double Aegis until paragon tier!

 

[keterys]

the Paladin can't use Divine Challenge on enemies he marks with Piercing Strike.

100% Correct.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Still, I do not agree with the OP. I think there needs to be ONE way for Misdirected Mark to work - its workings cannot require this much text analysis. And my reading is that it does indeed activate all marking abilities. This is not from reading the fine print, but from my feeling of what the bard does; it plays on the abilities of his comrades, bringing out the best in each.

It doesn't require any text analysis. Misdirected Mark applies the marked condition to a foe, which means that they have a -2 to attack anyone other than the person who marked them (which is determined by the Bard when he uses the power). That's all. This means it works with Fighters, Barbarians, Shamans, Wizards, Warlocks, Paladins, Swordmages, Rangers and whatever other classes you want to add to the list. That's it.

The only text analysis that's required is to take a look at the class features of Defenders to see how they react to marks. For Paladins and Swordmages they have nothing in their class feature list that reacts to a generic mark. They have Divine Challenge and Aegis, which are both specific powers that work in a close burst. The Fighter and Warden, on the other hand, have class features (or At-Will powers granted by a class feature in the case of the Warden) that respond to any mark that they created...whether they did it themselves or through Misdirected Mark.

The real issue here is actually the Swordmage and the Paladin, since they seem to be frequently misunderstood. Aegis and Divine Challenge are powers with specific rules associated with them. They both only apply to the target of the power, not a marked creature. They both also happen to apply an instance of the marked condition, but it's just that, a condition. Divine Challenge damage and the Aegis powers only apply to the target designated when you initially use the power.

 

[themilkman]

The real issue here is actually the Swordmage and the Paladin, since they seem to be frequently misunderstood. Aegis and Divine Challenge are powers with specific rules associated with them. They both only apply to the target of the power, not a marked creature. They both also happen to apply an instance of the marked condition, but it's just that, a condition. Divine Challenge damage and the Aegis powers only apply to the target designated when you initially use the power.

This.

Also, someone mentioned the Avenger earlier. For the same reason as above, misdirected mark doesn't trigger the Avenger's Oath of Enmity. In fact, the Avenger's Oath doesn't even apply the marked condition, just some other effects, and only to the Avenger's one Oath of Enmity target.

Although, now that I think about it, Retribution Avengers can still benefit from Misdirected Mark indirectly, since it makes enemies choose between attacking and potentially triggering Censure of Retribution or attacking someone else and taking a penalty to-hit.

 

[cmbarona]

Also, someone mentioned the Avenger earlier. For the same reason as above, misdirected mark doesn't trigger the Avenger's Oath of Enmity. In fact, the Avenger's Oath doesn't even apply the marked condition, just some other effects, and only to the Avenger's one Oath of Enmity target.

Although, now that I think about it, Retribution Avengers can still benefit from Misdirected Mark indirectly, since it makes enemies choose between attacking and potentially triggering Censure of Retribution or attacking someone else and taking a penalty to-hit.

Which is exactly what was meant by the post:

Now, misdirected mark in conjunction with an Avenger, that'd be interesting to see. Might be an easy way to get Censure of Retribution going fairly reliably, until the enemies wisen up.

It could also provide some good interaction with Pursuit Avengers, giving the Oathed enemy a lose-lose situation: follow the mark and trigger the Censure, or ignore the mark and be less accurate.

 

[BASHMAN]

Don't forget that this power can also be used to be a total jerk!

Fighter is flanking monster w/ Rogue. Fighter Marks monster so it won't attack rogue. Spoony the Jerk Bard decides to change the mark so that the Rogue is now marking the target. Even better, change the mark to the Wizard so that the monster can shift away from the fighter and charge the wizard. Now, I wouldn't play with people like this on a regular basis (griefers) but at Cons, sometimes it is unavoidable especially when people say "well my character is a gnome who loves practical jokes" as justification for this kind of stuff.