Misdirection/Nondetect vs See Invis

[daemonslye]

{search is timing out for me - I know these have been kicked around before}

1. Can a creature using nondetection have any protection from
see invisibility? (seems so)

2. Will misdirection have any effect against see invis? (does not seem so)

PHB.p.257: NONDETECTION

The warded creature or object becomes
difficult to detect by divination spells such
as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and
detect spells. Nondetection also prevents
location by such magic items as crystal balls.

PHB.p.255:MISDIRECTION

By means of this spell, you misdirect the
information from divination spells that
reveal auras (detect evil, detect magic, discern
lies, and the like). On casting the spell, you
choose another object within range. For
the duration of the spell, the subject of
misdirection is detected as if it were the
other object. (Neither the subject nor the
other object gets a saving throw against
this effect.) Detection spells provide information
based on the second object
rather than on the actual target of the
detection unless the caster of the detection
succeeds on a Will save. For instance, you
could make yourself detect as a tree if one
were within range at casting: not evil, not
lying, not magical, neutral in alignment,
and so forth.

PHB.p.275: SEE INVISIBILITY

Divination
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You can see any objects or beings that are
invisible within your range of vision, as
well as any that are ethereal, as if they were
normally visible. Such creatures are visible
to you as translucent shapes, allowing you
easily to discern the difference between
visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.
The spell does not reveal the method
used to obtain invisibility. It does not reveal
illusions or enable you to see through
opaque objects. It does not reveal creatures
who are simply hiding, concealed, or
otherwise hard to see.

 

[Will]

Good question.

I'm pretty sure misdirection has no effect on see invis. See invisibility does not reveal auras.

Nondetection, on the other hand, is tricky. It all depends on what they meant by 'such as.' Did they only intend that as a reminder of what divination spells are, or do they mean 'only these kinds of divination spells are valid subjects'? I don't know.

I think that nondetection has no effect. There would be absolutely no point to include the 'such as' clause if it applied to any divination spell. They could simply say 'any spell with divination school.' The construction suggests a more limited case.
In particular, the listed spells and item strongly indicate that the spell applies to scrying and finding spells.

 

[Methos of Aundair]

@daemonslye

I’m not exactly sure where you quoted the description from for nondetection, but had it been from the Player’s HB (page 257) if you would have read the very next sentence you would have seen this statement:

“If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.”

Under misdirection, the spell descriptor states it is an Illusion (Glamer). One of the statements in the Player’s HB (page 275) under see invisibility states:

“It does not reveal illusions or enable you to see through opaque objects.”

So no, see invisibility does not affect misdirection.
Yes, nondetection does affect see invisibility via a caster level check.

Hope this helps.

 

[Darklone]

Well, See invis vs Misdirection would let you see the opponent twice, you would have no idea though who's the invisible one and who's the glamer.

 

[Thanee]

I'd actually say, that both have no effect at all in this case. Not even Mind Blank does.

Nondetection: See Invisibility does not let you detect the creature, it lets you see invisible stuff. It actually has no effect at all on the creature, only on you.

Misdirection: See Invisibility has nothing to do with auras.

Bye
Thanee

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Actually I would tend to disagree (or rather, agree with Thanee )

"Misdirection" prevents detection by spells that reveal auras . See Invisibility isn't such a spell, it simply makes the user ignore/pierce invisibility effects. Its a passive enhancement, not a detect style active "probe" ( I liken them to radar - they send out a signal, which bounces back to the caster when the appropriate trigger is hit, such as a magic aura, one of evil etc. yielding a signal. Passive enhancements include "Blindsight" etc. )

"Nondetection" wards the benefited target from divination attempts via the mechanic of a caster-level check, that is if a divination check is cast or directed _at _ the warded creature. But "See Invisibility" is a passive sight enhancement such as "Darkvision", "Blindsight" or similar magics, which is not directed at anyone but boosts the recipients abilities. So Non-detections level check mechanic would kick in, because nothing particular is directed at the warded creature.

Sorry, by my reading of the rules, the "non-detection" tactic does not fly for protecting invisible targets from "See Invisibility"

 

[Starglim]

"Nondetection" wards the benefited target from divination attempts via the mechanic of a caster-level check, that is if a divination check is cast or directed _at _ the warded creature. But "See Invisibility" is a passive sight enhancement such as "Darkvision", "Blindsight" or similar magics, which is not directed at anyone but boosts the recipients abilities. So Non-detections level check mechanic would kick in, because nothing particular is directed at the warded creature.

Sorry, by my reading of the rules, the "non-detection" tactic does not fly for protecting invisible targets from "See Invisibility"

Clairvoyance is also a passive enhancement of sight, and nondetection works on that.

However, I'd argue that see invisibility does not detect the target at all, even passively. It defeats magic that would prevent you from seeing the target in the normal fashion. I conclude that nondetection does not affect see invisibility.

edit: I agree with Thanee that mind blank would not defeat see invisibility either, for the same reason.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, but Clairvoyance does not only enhance your own vision, but give you a complete new sense. It works through a scrying sensor and not through your physical eyes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

1. Can a creature using nondetection have any protection from
see invisibility? (seems so)

I am very ambivalent on this one. However if you allow to protect against See Invisibility, it may lead you to rule similarly for all illusions for example against True Seeing, and I am not sure I want that. It may not be terrible since it not a 100% protection, but Nondetection already has its use against scrying and alignment-sorting, I think it could be too much if it had also the use of making all your illusions much harder to beat.

2. Will misdirection have any effect against see invis? (does not seem so)

Well, this really doesn't seem to help much already.

 

[Starglim]

Yeah, but Clairvoyance does not only enhance your own vision, but give you a complete new sense. It works through a scrying sensor and not through your physical eyes.

Perhaps nondetection affects any sensory ability that is entirely magical (clairvoyance and detect spells) as opposed to emulating a sense that is natural for some creatures and works on some sort of natural basis in the D&D world (such as darkvision and blindsight).

Back to my point, see invisibility merely allows your natural vision to work normally in spite of illusion magic, so it falls into the second group.

What about the use of see invisibility to detect ethereal creatures? Is that an actual detection ability, and therefore foiled by nondetection ?