Misuse of the save mechanics in the MM to reintroduce save or die effects

[-Avalon-]

Dunno.... I think I kinda like the one idea I saw by the new guy...

make it a multi-tiered issue:
Tier 1-Fine
Tier 2-Slowed
Tier 3-Immobilized
Tier 4-Petrified

if you roll a 20, you are back to 1; roll 11-19 go up one tier; roll 2-10 go down one tier; roll 1 (house rule of critical misses has to be in the game) go to bottom tier (in this case petrified)

EDIT: I am also a big fan of the aid another style stuff, so make it so that if another medusa wishes to attack someone alrdy under the effects of a gaze attack from a medusa, they inflict a -2 penalty on the saves of the person that round....

 

[unan oranis]

I agree - I think that would be a more elegant method of handling it (so much so that I'll test it out the next time I have any petrifying or whatever monsters, and see how it works).

It would give a nice opportunity for a medusa to spread the love around by slowing lots of people, or focussing on people one at a time to turn them to stone - although the medusa wouldn't be able to just look at someone and then leave them to turn to stone.

Incidentally, the existing mechanics mean that someone a medusa gazes at has to fail two saves to be petrified. That is .45 * .45 or only a 20% chance!

It would almost be a miracle for anyone to get turned to stone during a fight with a medusa!

Cheers

*Only* a 20% chance? that seems pretty darn scary to me... considering how many battles are to be fought, most heroes can't afford a 1 in 5 chance of defeat.

 

[Runestar]

*Only* a 20% chance? that seems pretty darn scary to me... considering how many battles are to be fought, most heroes can't afford a 1 in 5 chance of defeat.

In greek mythology, I don't think the gorgons had anything less than a 100% success rate...

But monsters utilizing this save-or-die mechanic are still fairly rare, so you shouldn't be facing them that often.

 

[-Avalon-]

In greek mythology, I don't think the gorgons had anything less than a 100% success rate...

But monsters utilizing this save-or-die mechanic are still fairly rare, so you shouldn't be facing them that often.

Yeah, that gorgon was a solo, as was the hydra and the lion and....

Most of the great legends are based on TRUE solo's, not the ones we have in our D&D books... is the reason 1st Ed was so awesome. When some guy ran into you at a convention and said he bested Orcus' Avatar, it was a matter of WOW! That had to be a hard fight! Now, when somebody says they beat Orcus on his home plane, it is more like, "Really? So who was the boss mob then?" The mobs just seem to lack the punch they used to have...

I don't fear the slow burn, and don't fear the shock value. There are TOO many ways to heal and ritual your way out of problems... So if your 5 slow burners manage to stone/kill/paralyze/disentegrate/whatever someone, the party kills the enemies, heals up, performs a ritual, and moves on... by the way, all those things are replenished except the gold it cost for materials to do the ritual. Because all of it is based on replenishing resources, 4th Ed will make people feel like superheroes until they get a run of bad luck, when the party just dies lol...

I love 4th Ed btw, but that is my major gripe, the monsters just do not have any true ability to make PC's cringe at the thought of fighting them... well, except for kobolds hehe...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In greek mythology, I don't think the gorgons had anything less than a 100% success rate...

Well, didn't the final confrontation that slayed the Medusa had a 100 % success rate, since the hero slaying her used a mirror against her?

The Medusa wasn't even immune against her own power. It stands to reason that if you encounter groups of Medusaestaei (or whatever the plural form is), their power works differently. It's weaker, but on the upside, they don't petrify each other.

Or maybe the ancient stories where exaggerated for effect. Since most people weren't strong (high level) enough to beat her, most still ended up petrified...

 

[ravenheart]

The basic idea is that it works the same as death saves - a succesful indicates doesn't imply you recover, it just means it is not getting worse. So you still start off at slowed, and get worse - you just can't shrug the effect off.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say. Sorry 'bout the confusion, I was writing down my thoughts as I went along!

I would like to keep the mechanic as is, yet each time you fail a save it is recorded until the end of the encounter, like the death saving throws. Actually, if it is just like a death saving throw, why not use them?

"each time a character fails a save against a medusa's gaze, this counts as a failed death saving throw. If a PC fails 3 death saving throws during an encounter with a medusa, they are petrified instead of being killed. Characters still die normally if their hp are reduced to a negative bloodied value"

This could work, although I think it's starting to sound a wee bit too lethal. What if you already failed 2 death saves in the previous encounter, then you heal up, charge the medusa's lair and suddenly go down in the first round of combat (assuming you get hit by the gaze attack and fail the save)? That's why I thought it should be a separate set of saves.

Then again, if you were allowed to make a heal check similar to "Stabilize the Dying" to (momentarily) stop the petrification process, I think it could work. Having it require a Standard Action balances it, don't you think?

Dunno.... I think I kinda like the one idea I saw by the new guy...

make it a multi-tiered issue:
Tier 1-Fine
Tier 2-Slowed
Tier 3-Immobilized
Tier 4-Petrified

if you roll a 20, you are back to 1; roll 11-19 go up one tier; roll 2-10 go down one tier; roll 1 (house rule of critical misses has to be in the game) go to bottom tier (in this case petrified)

EDIT: I am also a big fan of the aid another style stuff, so make it so that if another medusa wishes to attack someone alrdy under the effects of a gaze attack from a medusa, they inflict a -2 penalty on the saves of the person that round....

Thanks! (I'm assuming it was me you were referring to as "the new guy", no?) This looks like a working solution, maybe a stabilizing heal check could work with this take on petrification as well?

 

[-Avalon-]

Yes, this is what I was trying to say. Sorry 'bout the confusion, I was writing down my thoughts as I went along!



This could work, although I think it's starting to sound a wee bit too lethal. What if you already failed 2 death saves in the previous encounter, then you heal up, charge the medusa's lair and suddenly go down in the first round of combat (assuming you get hit by the gaze attack and fail the save)? That's why I thought it should be a separate set of saves.

Then again, if you were allowed to make a heal check similar to "Stabilize the Dying" to (momentarily) stop the petrification process, I think it could work. Having it require a Standard Action balances it, don't you think?



Thanks! (I'm assuming it was me you were referring to as "the new guy", no?) This looks like a working solution, maybe a stabilizing heal check could work with this take on petrification as well?

Yes, was referring to you...

Also, I like the tug of war concept better than a simple slipping out/slow burn... I also like the idea of multiple enemies all trying to take one person out (hence aid another)

 

[CapnZapp]

The core of the issue here is that "iconic abilities" if defined as "bypassing hp" are inherently unbalanced.

That's why 3E Disintegrate was changed from a save-or-die spell into a damage-dealing spell.

Frankly, I'm surprised effects like this petrifying gaze are still around in 4E. Didn't the designers learn their lesson?

The difference between failing one save and dying, and failing three saves over three rounds and dying, is merely the amount of bad luck you have. The result (you being taken out of the fight without getting to use up all your healing resources first) is the same, and just as undesirable.

Instead, this gaze should do something along the lines of "3d8+7 petrifying damage", where "petrifying damage" obviously is a damage type with no known counter/resistance.

Then, when you're out of hit points and death saves, what happens when you die can differ from normal. (That is, you turn to stone instead).

Exactly as was the case for Disintegrate. The game mechanic was identical to any other kind of damage, only when you died, you were disintegrated (which brought its own inconveniences).

This "fail three saves in a row" deal might not be percieved as scary. But more importantly, it's functionally equivalent to the old save or die mechanism. If you thought that was broken, this is too.

 

[CapnZapp]

The above notwithstanding, here's a suggested "scarier" petrification mechanism:

§1 When hit by this power, you start to turn to stone. You must make a save at the start of each turn:
1st failed save: Slowed
2nd failed save: Immobilized
3rd failed save: Turned into stone (you effectively die)
Individual successful saves do nothing (but see §4).

§2 Any extra saves granted by powers or allies cannot hasten your demise. However, they can increase your chances of fighting off the effect - see §4.

§3 A creature in the process of turning to stone is immune to any other effect that turns you into stone.

§4 It is possible to fight off the effect. Rolling a natural 20 on any save makes you fight off the effect immediately. Additionally, the DM should choose one of these two options:
a) You can successfully fight off this power by successfully making two saves in the same round. (Appropriate only for parties with abilities that allow extra saves)
b) You can successfully fight off this power by successfully making two consecutive saves. (The more lenient option, appropriate for any party)

§5 Once fought off, a character becomes immune to this power (i.e. any basilisk or medusa) for the rest of the encounter, day or permanently (DMs choice).

 

[Blizzardb]

This "fail three saves in a row" deal might not be percieved as scary. But more importantly, it's functionally equivalent to the old save or die mechanism. If you thought that was broken, this is too.

You have a point (this bugged me too when I first read the ability), but at least your teammates have the option to grant you bonuses to saves during this three rounds (this works even better if you play with the houserule that extra saves don't petrify you faster).