Misuse of the save mechanics in the MM to reintroduce save or die effects
- Thread starter Taralan
- Start date
Keep in mind: Close Blast 5, usable every round. A 20% chance means that for every five PCs hit, one will end up turned to stone. I'd say the odds are actually stacked against the party... at least, before you take into account any bonuses they might be able to provide through powers or the like.
No one got turned to stone in the one medusa fight I've run, but I know several PCs came close enough to worry.
For myself, I find it an amazingly elegant mechanism, and a perfectly fine use of the saving throw system, though I can see how it would bother simulationists. The only thing I would see changed is official word that only the 'natural' save at the end of your turn will worsen your condition, rather than any bonus saves you might be granted.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
If petrification is just going to reverse when the medusa is dead, then why not just call it 'stunned'? In fact a stun could be nastier than that.
I think the 4e designers were attempting to both have their cake AND eat it too. They wanted a monster that would be fearsome, so they gave it a watered down version of an instantaneous kill effect, but at the same time they didn't think it was 'fun', so they watered it down. What they ended up with is what you end up with in most such compromises, the worst of both worlds.
It is still a total kill effect even if it takes 3 rounds to kill you and only works 25% of the time. OTOH it is clearly a lot less awe inspiring than the old time "if you are hit you die" mechanic.
Personally I think the problem is that the 4e designers have lost sight of what the fun in D&D is to a certain extent. They have become so focused on one particular vision of the way to have fun that they've railroaded the game down a specific path that only caters to that one idea of what having fun is. To ME and the players I DM for having fun means really being challenged. Having truly frighteningly powerful monsters and dangers that might well be able to snuff you out in an instant. I'm not saying that is all that is fun in the game or that such monsters should be the norm, but stripping that element out of the game IMHO isn't ADDING to the fun of the game, it is just removing a possible dimension of fun simply because it didn't happen to float their boats.
So, be welcome to come play in my world. You get hit by the gaze of the medusa, then baby you're petrified. But you can be very sure if there's a medusa around, everyone knows it! Very few and far between are the parties that dare take on that adventure, and they prepare well, or they join the statue collection. If the players don't like that kind of fun, then I'm not going to ram it down their throats. I guarantee you that even if the player who's character got petrified gets a bit bored waiting for the fight to end so they can introduce a new character, they will remember that fight! In the long run the game will be more fun for all of them, and when they beat those odds they'll remember it a lot more than they remember the 847th Orc they killed.
So I have a message for Mr. Mearls and crew. Don't overdo it. You may be playing game designer, but try to be cognizant of the fact that you're way is not the only way, and remember that if you try to homogenize us all into playing only one way, some of us will just play other game systems and you'll lose customers. I like 4e fine and that isn't a criticizm, just an observation.
I think the 4e designers were attempting to both have their cake AND eat it too. They wanted a monster that would be fearsome, so they gave it a watered down version of an instantaneous kill effect, but at the same time they didn't think it was 'fun', so they watered it down. What they ended up with is what you end up with in most such compromises, the worst of both worlds.
It is still a total kill effect even if it takes 3 rounds to kill you and only works 25% of the time. OTOH it is clearly a lot less awe inspiring than the old time "if you are hit you die" mechanic.
Personally I think the problem is that the 4e designers have lost sight of what the fun in D&D is to a certain extent. They have become so focused on one particular vision of the way to have fun that they've railroaded the game down a specific path that only caters to that one idea of what having fun is. To ME and the players I DM for having fun means really being challenged. Having truly frighteningly powerful monsters and dangers that might well be able to snuff you out in an instant. I'm not saying that is all that is fun in the game or that such monsters should be the norm, but stripping that element out of the game IMHO isn't ADDING to the fun of the game, it is just removing a possible dimension of fun simply because it didn't happen to float their boats.
So, be welcome to come play in my world. You get hit by the gaze of the medusa, then baby you're petrified. But you can be very sure if there's a medusa around, everyone knows it! Very few and far between are the parties that dare take on that adventure, and they prepare well, or they join the statue collection. If the players don't like that kind of fun, then I'm not going to ram it down their throats. I guarantee you that even if the player who's character got petrified gets a bit bored waiting for the fight to end so they can introduce a new character, they will remember that fight! In the long run the game will be more fun for all of them, and when they beat those odds they'll remember it a lot more than they remember the 847th Orc they killed.
So I have a message for Mr. Mearls and crew. Don't overdo it. You may be playing game designer, but try to be cognizant of the fact that you're way is not the only way, and remember that if you try to homogenize us all into playing only one way, some of us will just play other game systems and you'll lose customers. I like 4e fine and that isn't a criticizm, just an observation.
This reminds me of the "warning sign" technique that the HERO System uses for certain powers. Basically there are two different "warning labels" that are attached to certain powers. An exclamation point means that the power could be seriously unbalanced in the wrong hands (like Find Weakness, a power that allows you to repeatedly stack penalties to a target's defense) and a stop sign means that the power could completely wreck the campaign (like Transdimensional Movement, a power that lets you move into other dimensions and even backward through time).
In the HERO System, these warning signs are attached to powers that PCs can take, to alert the GM to areas that may require special consideration or outright denial. However, it occurs to me that a similar technique could be used here. Reintroduce "save or die" type effects, but put some sort of "warning label" on the monsters that have them. That way GMs who want to avoid those types of monsters can do so easily, while GMs who want to put them in (like yourself) can.
Of course you do have to answer the question of what you do about PC powers. If you don't give PCs save or die effects, then they will be at a severe disadvantage when facing monsters that have them. If you do give PCs save or die effects, then they will steamroll over monsters that don't have them, so you'll have to give them to all monsters to make the fights more balanced, and you're back to where we've started.
One solution is to give PCs save or die effects but make them based on rare magic items (that they can't just buy; they have to find) that they can save for these types of battles.
Or you can always put in an insta-kill terrain effect that the monster can try to force the player into, as well.
Irda Ranger
First Post
This is a feature, not a problem that needs to be solved.
Irda Ranger
First Post
keterys
First Post
As a suggestion, you might want to make it require a critical or something to pull off "or die" type attacks. So the medusa on a crit goes straight to petrify. Stops a lucky single action from poof, everyone is petrified, sucks to be you - but still has the serious threat of it. That or it requires a _really_ lucky action.
