Mithral Armor

[werk]

Disagree. With that reasoning, things like Power Attack and Natural Spell are cheese (no 2HF or druid should leave home without them). That Cure Light Wounds wand is cheese, because every sane party wants one (unless they can get Lesser Vigor). The Divine Power spell is cheese because every sane battle cleric memorizes it.

Without dragging this out, you are making a lot of assumptions about my thought processes, and have distorted my original point...none of which further your argument which is really:

Finally, I guess if you think its necessary to nerf bards, barbarians, or rangers, so be it... Barbarians are a strong core class, but only due to rage, really (how many Barb 20 builds do you see on the optimization forums?), and is often multiclassed. Bards and Rangers are both usually considered to be fairly weak in an optimization sense. Throwing them a small bone (a few steps of AC for a TON of gold) is only going to help them catch up.

You are allowing mithril as a balancing factor of your own..."throwing them a bone." So you agree that it does provide a distinct advantage where one did not exist previously even if it is expensive. You seem to think that bards, barbars, and rangers are underpowered and that following the established rules somehow nerfs them even further. A point I don't necessarily disagree with.

As I said before (and you removed from your quote) It's really not that big of a deal, but I don't allow it IMC.

 

[Aaron L]

Races of the Wild has Mithral armor statted out...and says they're all actually an armor weight lighter. Doesn't that mean that regardless of what the description for Mithral says, those items are truly different? Also, Elven Chain and Mithral Full Plate of Speed say they're considered lighter...period.

Yeah, I was just thinking about that, so I change my position. Mithral armor is one category lighter. It's listed that way.

Kind of sucks, because I wanted to use the Heavy Armor feats from Races of Stone for use with my character's Mithral Full Plate. Dangit.

 

[Aaron L]

When everyone in the party is wearing mithril, you know it's cheese.

Most of the Fighters I've ever seen wear full plate. Is full plate therefore cheese? Most Rogues I've seen wear chain shirts. Are chain shirts cheese, too? Every fighting character wants a magic weapon. How about those? Cheddar, too? Adamantine plate is a better option for someone without a high Dex, anyway. (DR 3/- is really nice.) Characters using the best equipment for the job isn't cheesy. Agile characters choosing to wear the lightest and most flexible armor available to them isn't cheesy in any way. On the contrary, it is simply logical. There's a reason that bronze armor isn't very common; steel is better. Is it cheesy to wear steel armor instead of bronze? I certainly don't think so. I would think that everyone who could get mithral armor should get it. If they are agile. If not then they should get adamantine. Just as steel overtook bronze, the better materials should be the first choice. The only problem is the rarity and cost of it, which is the only reason why mithral and adamantine armor isn't the standard the way steel is.

It isn't like mithral is cheap, either. You pay a lot for your lighter armor. For the price of a suit of mithral full plate you could get a suit of +3 steel full plate instead!! How is that cheesy in any way at all?!

Those check penaties still only tell half the story. Breast plate and Full plate provide protection mainly from fitted metal plates. IMHO Making those plates lighter does not reduce how locked together those plates are or reduce the training it take to account for the reduced mobility.

Yes, but since mithral is stronger and lighter than steel, the plates can be made smaller and thinner; whereas a steel breastplate must be made of one or two big plates, a mithral version could be made of maybe five or six smaller interlocking plates with greater flexibility. The increased strength means the plates can be thinner, cutting down on the bulkiness. Not to mention the greater mobility granted from the sheer amount of reduced weight. Cutting the weight on a suit of armor in half should have a big advantage.

I've always imagined mithral armor as not just being made of a different material, but being constructed differently to take advantage of the better material. Just as you wouldn't try to construct metal armor the same way you would leather armor, you wouldn't construct mithral armor the same way you would steel armor.

 

[werk]

Most of the Fighters I've ever seen wear full plate. Is full plate therefore cheese? Most Rogues I've seen wear chain shirts. Are chain shirts cheese, too?

That's not quite what I said is it?

Wizards in mithril chain shirts with mithril bucklers, rangers in mithril breasplates, and barbars in mithril full plate is really what I'm addressing.

That's fine, you all seem eager to jump me for using the word cheese which, to me, means that you all know it's cheese and don't appreciate me letting everyone else in on your secret

I'll just refer to the FAQ which says that your interpretation is wrong, but is understandable and playable...which is pretty much my only point.

As for the Races of the Wild...PERIOD!

 

[ainbimagh]

Medium armor
Hide 15 gp +3 4 –3 20% 20 ft. 15 ft. 25 lb.
Scale mail 50 gp +4 3 –4 25% 20 ft. 15 ft. 30 lb.
Chainmail 150 gp +5 2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lb.
Breastplate 200 gp +5 3 –4 25% 20 ft. 15 ft. 30 lb.

Heavy armor
Splint mail 200 gp +6 0 –7 40% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 45 lb.
Banded mail 250 gp +6 1 –6 35% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 35 lb.
Half-plate 600 gp +7 0 –7 40% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 50 lb.
Full plate 1,500 gp +8 1 –6 35% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 50 lb.

Well seeing as how according to the SRD weight is not the identifying factor in the type of armor, I would judge mithril full plate requires heavy armor proficiency. Since that is the only benefit mithril has is reducing the weight, not the style of the armor.

 

[Sejs]

Yes, but since mithral is stronger and lighter than steel, the plates can be made smaller and thinner; whereas a steel breastplate must be made of one or two big plates, a mithral version could be made of maybe five or six smaller interlocking plates with greater flexibility.

There's something of an inconsistancy. Mithral is said to be as strong as steel, not stronger, while weighing less .. but then they turn around and give the stuff a higher hardness and more hit points than the material it's supposed to be equal to. >_<

Following the as-strong model, you wouldn't be making mithral armor plates thinner because that would just result in weaker armor. You'd need the same (net) thickness to keep the same stopping power. This kind of leads to the Adamantine Problem - if a metal were stronger than steel but weighed the same, you could pretty much have it both ways: either use the same amount of material (compared to steel) and get a tougher suit of armor, or you could use less material enough to equal the strength of the steel norm and get a lighter suit.

 

[Aaron L]

That's not quite what I said is it?

Wizards in mithril chain shirts with mithril bucklers, rangers in mithril breasplates, and barbars in mithril full plate is really what I'm addressing.

That's fine, you all seem eager to jump me for using the word cheese which, to me, means that you all know it's cheese and don't appreciate me letting everyone else in on your secret

I'll just refer to the FAQ which says that your interpretation is wrong, but is understandable and playable...which is pretty much my only point.

As for the Races of the Wild...what version is that? PERIOD!

I still don't see any problem with Wizards in mithral chain shirts or Bararians in mithral full plate at all. Is that extra 3 points of armor over a breastplate going to destroy the game? Is that Wizard having a halfway decent armor class going to throw the balance of the entire game out of whack? I would think that the Wizard wearing the chain shirt would be little more than a flavor thing, unless he regularly wades into melee or something. I would say that almost universally it is entirely a matter of how players want their characters to look, as opposed to some kind of exploitation of the rules. If the Barbarian really wanted that 3 extra points of AC he could have gotten a +3 breastplate for 1000 gp cheaper, and unless he has a 20 dex he isn't going to get any advantage from the higher max dex bonus over the breastplate.

And what does the FAQ say on the matter, exactly, and does it contradict what it says in the rulebooks yet again?

I'm not sure what you are referring to about the version of Races of the Wild. If you mean 3.0 vs 3.5, it is 3.5.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but it's just seeming silly to me to declare mithral to be somehow broken or overpowered. What if it was a +9000 gp magical enhancement that had these properties? Would people still have this problem with it?

I'm just confused a bit, here.

 

[Aaron L]

There's something of an inconsistancy. Mithral is said to be as strong as steel, not stronger, while weighing less .. but then they turn around and give the stuff a higher hardness and more hit points than the material it's supposed to be equal to. >_<

Following the as-strong model, you wouldn't be making mithral armor plates thinner because that would just result in weaker armor. You'd need the same (net) thickness to keep the same stopping power. This kind of leads to the Adamantine Problem - if a metal were stronger than steel but weighed the same, you could pretty much have it both ways: either use the same amount of material (compared to steel) and get a tougher suit of armor, or you could use less material enough to equal the strength of the steel norm and get a lighter suit.

Ah well, I was going with the actual numbers, because all too often the flavor text appears to be written half heartedly without much thought, using cliches and formulaic language. I'm still surprised they didn't say that adamantine was "well nigh invulnerable"

Either that or they write the flavor text, then the numbers get revised but no one bothers to recheck the text.

 

[werk]

I still don't see any problem with Wizards in mithral chain shirts or Bararians in mithral full plate at all.

That's pretty much the bare bones of it.

You don't see a problem. I (repeatedly stated) that I don't think it's a big deal to read it that way...but it is wrong, and I don't allow in IMC.

Full plate is still full plate which is heavy armor, even if you make it out of feathers or aerogel. For me, it's not so much a balance issue as it is a something for nothing issue. Barbarians do not get heavy armor proficiency unless they pick it as a feat or gain it from another class. It is cheaper to get a few measley little points of AC from Dex than it is to magic-up a suit of medium armor to the same bonus...so the cost argument supports my view of mithril as cheese....probably ricotta, possibly marzipan.

(I removed the version part of my post as I realized that it was 3.5e...I don't use it personally, and had it confused with savage species, which I also do not use. Considering it is 3.5e, then the FAQ does indeed contradict the published rules...again.)

 

[nittanytbone]

Full plate is still full plate which is heavy armor, even if you make it out of feathers or aerogel...

Unless it is listed as a "medium armor" (Races of the Wild)... Or explicitly called a medium armor (Mithril Full Plate of Speed, DMG)... Or the material description says "Heavy armors are treated as medium..." (PHB, SRD).