D&D 5E MM: How many high levels monsters have some form of magic resistance?

[Dausuul]

I think the one thing that bothers me about *any* conversation dealing with caster nerfing is the assumption that every player is trying to "steal the spot light" and "end the encounter in one round." Frankly, it's rather irksome that every time I bring up an aspect of the new casting system I dislike, it's assumed I'm upset because I don't get to be the most powerful character anymore.

My issue is I think the nerfing went too far; there's no point of using your big spells when they would be most useful, because every big bad scary thing that needs its teeth pushed in with a meteor swarm gets to auto save on top of having some kind cheap resistance to magic or weird lair benefits. So what's the point of even having a meteor swarm when it won't ever be used to its full potential? And I don't claim to know much about "bounded accuracy" or whatever it's called, but the idea of blowing a 9th level spell on a bunch of yips- because let's face it, they're the only ones who will actually be effected- leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Oh, please. You're saying that meteor swarm is only worth it if it's cost-effective against one target with Legendary Resistance? It has an AoE of eight hundred squares and averages 140 damage! It's a spell for taking out hordes of tough foes. You can kill or cripple two dozen frost giants with one spell (they need a natural 20 to make the save)--and if you think frost giants are "yips," I suggest you try taking on 24 of them with a 20th-level fighter and see how far you get.

As for "needing" to blow higher-level slots to keep direct-damage spells effective: No, you don't. I'm playing a 13th-level wizard and I mostly throw straight-up, level 3 fireballs. They work just fine. 8d6 is a good solid hit at this level, enough to kill weak foes and rock stronger ones back on their heels. When dealing with a single big foe, I provide support for the barbarian and the monk, using dimension door to get them where they need to be, providing distractions, and counterspelling enemy magic. When there's a lot of enemies, the barbarian and the monk play bodyguard while I lay waste. They have their specialties and I have mine.

 

[EroGaki]

As for "needing" to blow higher-level slots to keep direct-damage spells effective: No, you don't. I'm playing a 13th-level wizard and I mostly throw straight-up, level 3 fireballs. They work just fine. 8d6 is a good solid hit at this level, enough to kill weak foes and rock stronger ones back on their heels.

Perhaps your experience differs from mine, because all my fireballs have done is tickle the foes we've been facing; at least half of each group of baddies I fireball make they're saves, and with a pitiful average of 24 points, that comes out to around 12. I don't believe that as we go up in levels, it's going to improve, either.

 

[bleezy]

Perhaps your experience differs from mine, because all my fireballs have done is tickle the foes we've been facing; at least half of each group of baddies I fireball make they're saves, and with a pitiful average of 24 points, that comes out to around 12. I don't believe that as we go up in levels, it's going to improve, either.

Average damage is 28. That seems excellent to me, but I suppose it depends on the enemies you face.

Either way, I can think of a lot of low level wizard spells that an enemy might use legendary resistance on: Slow, Fear, Suggestion.

 

[Joe Liker]

Perhaps your experience differs from mine, because all my fireballs have done is tickle the foes we've been facing; at least half of each group of baddies I fireball make they're saves, and with a pitiful average of 24 points, that comes out to around 12. I don't believe that as we go up in levels, it's going to improve, either.

It sounds like you're not an evoker. If damage is your primary gauge of effectiveness, you probably should have been. If you specialize in another school, you should be playing to those strengths (and framing this discussion in those terms).

 

[EroGaki]

It sounds like you're not an evoker. If damage is your primary gauge of effectiveness, you probably should have been. If you specialize in another school, you should be playing to those strengths (and framing this discussion in those terms).

Heh, I'm playing a diviner. But the adventure we've been doing makes it very difficult to play to a diviner's strengths; we been in a rather brutal hack and slash fest, with literally no chance to rest in a town, get supplies, or anything like that; we woke up in a dungeon full of zombies, and have been clawing ourselves out for about six level now. :/

But even if I were playing an evoker, I see nothing that would tip the scales in their favor, damage wise.My fireballs would still do pitiful damage.

 

[keterys]

The damage scaling relies on the conceit that you fight a healthy mix of low level opponents throughout the entirety of the campaign. Being able to fireball the 20 gnoll archers that accompany the Balor, even as it ignores the fireball, is supposed to still be a vital use.

I do agree that they screwed up on the scaling by level in many cases. Most should scale at double the rate, or also include an increase in size. This is particularly true of low level spells, like Burning Hands.

I was also referring to the use of status effects with mid-level spells, which require no scaling. If you hold person the assassin, you can still coup de grace him just fine to drop him in one round. Polymorph still lets you remove one element almost entirely from a combat while you deal with the rest. Etc.

 

[aramis erak]

The damage scaling relies on the conceit that you fight a healthy mix of low level opponents throughout the entirety of the campaign. Being able to fireball the 20 gnoll archers that accompany the Balor, even as it ignores the fireball, is supposed to still be a vital use.

I do agree that they screwed up on the scaling by level in many cases. Most should scale at double the rate, or also include an increase in size. This is particularly true of low level spells, like Burning Hands.

I was also referring to the use of status effects with mid-level spells, which require no scaling. If you hold person the assassin, you can still coup de grace him just fine to drop him in one round. Polymorph still lets you remove one element almost entirely from a combat while you deal with the rest. Etc.

No coup de grace rule, at least not in the PHB nor MM. Sure, you can auto-crit on him, but if he's tough, by the RAW, you may not KILL him. (Note that the auto-crit if within 5' means a zero'd character being hit with most melee weapons has just failed 2 death saves...)
That's as close as it gets, RAW.

 

[keterys]

I am referring to the autocrit rule when I refer to CdG, yes.

 

[aramis erak]

I am referring to the autocrit rule when I refer to CdG, yes.

It's not the same. Against held or sleeping, it's not even close to the CdG rules from prior editions. As my players found out last night against some drakes. (In a home game, I'd allow a genuine CdG.)

 

[keterys]

It's not the same. Against held or sleeping, it's not even close to the CdG rules from prior editions. As my players found out last night against some drakes. (In a home game, I'd allow a genuine CdG.)

Eh. It's not too far off for 3e and 4e, in effect. In 3e you had to take a full-round action, provoke AoOs, and it just made it a critical that you got to save against: the DC was ridiculous, but frankly the number of immunities in 3e meant that your chances of CdGing effectively was much less (both for landing an initial condition and for the thing not being immune to critical hits, death effects, etc)

In 4E, you had to do half the target's hp in one hit to kill it. You're not going to do that even with a crit in 5e.

Since we're talking about ~20th level you can assume several crits (iterative attacks) instead.

Every edition is different, but there's a reason I mentioned an assassin - hold person is low level, and you should kill any humanoid (especially a rogue-like one) with a round of autocrits. As opposed to hold monster which might find a creature that has too many hp to compete.