MM templated PCs in game

[shilsen]

I've never used one of the MM templates (specifically half-celestial, -dragon and -fiend) for a PC, or been in a campaign with one, and I was wondering how successfully other people have used them. Were they overpowered or underpowered? What ECL and class combos were used? How did they mesh with more "normal" PCs?

Care to share?

 

[Mr Fidgit]

a PC in our monthly game is a half-dragon, and, IMO, it doesn't work very well

of the three half- template creatures in the MM, the half-dragon is the only one that has an effect on hit points (raises one die type), but this hasn't helped the PC at all. because his overall level is lower with the template (compared to the other PCs), he doesn't have the hit points to stay in combat very long. in fact, in every major battle the half-dragon has participated in, he's been unconcious by round three.

the abilities of a half-dragon aren't that great, either. the breath weapon in only usable once per day, and neither the damage nor the DC improve as the character gains levels.

the half-celestial and -fiend will also have hit point problems, but at least their special abilities increase with their levels.

 

[Victim]

The problem with templates is that a flat adjustment to character level doesn't work well. THe revised level adjustment for a half-dragon was 4, IIRC. A 5th level party, fighting CR 5 monsters, with a first level 1/2 dragon? He's more vulernable than the mage but most of his powers (huge STR, nat armor) work best in melee.

On the other hand, compare a 20th level fighter with 16th level 1/2 dragon fighter. The 1/2 dragon will have more HP because of the HD increase and Con boost, equal attacks (+4 from str = +4 from levels), will hit harder (+4 from strength), will be smarter and more charismatic, has an elemental immunity (huge) and breath weapon (not so huge by level 20) natural armor of +4 and an occasionally useful claw and bite routine.

The normal fighter has 3 extra feats, IIRC. Compared to the benefits of 1/2 dragondom, that's nothing.

So a flat level adjustment has extreme problems on both ends. Some kind of sliding adjustment would be better.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I've been a player in games with the templates and run a game where one character is a Bhaalspawn. I filed the serial numbers off and called it a Graven Spawn. (Old family of vampires, necromancers and madmen whose children occassional have powers different than their peers.)

In the game I played in, it the templated characters fit in about right but it was a little monty at the time so it was difficult to tell if it was a result of the GM of what.

In the game I run, the templated character is a little weaker but he gains new abilities and penalites as he goes up levels so he's always getting a little something. Not bad so far.

I'll be very interested to see how Savage Spieces does when it comes out and how it plays into the whole thing.

 

[shilsen]

So a flat level adjustment has extreme problems on both ends. Some kind of sliding adjustment would be better.

I agree. I'm thinking about ways to implement this & will probably end up making templated PCs gain some of the special abilities and stat increases instead of gaining every alternate level. So a 1st level PC half-celestial half-human would start out as a 1st lvl PC, and then progress as follows:

At 1000 XP - Gain certain stat increases & special abilities
At 3000 XP - Gain another character lvl
At 6000 XP - Gain certain stat increases & special abilities
At 10000 XP - Gain another character lvl
At 15000 XP - Gain certain stat increases & special abilities
...and so on

I'd probably spread the template out over 5 levels, so it would end up being +5 ECL, but would not gain the entire benefits until at 10th lvl, having 5 class levels at that point. Should cut down on the imbalances quite a bit.

 

[Balgus]

i can't find it right now- but there was a thread on this a month ago.

Some suggestions were:

1)to have a sliding benefits list that increased with class level
2)to trade off class abilities with racial abilities (like lose a feat to gain spell like abil/supernat/ extraord abil)
3)XP penalty instead of a straight ECL. - like MC rules.
4)talk to DM about alternative... this is best. nobody really wants to get stuck 4 levels behind the group. It is waaay too hard to stay alive with the lack in HP and skills....

 

[Crothian]

a PC in our monthly game is a half-dragon, and, IMO, it doesn't work very well

of the three half- template creatures in the MM, the half-dragon is the only one that has an effect on hit points (raises one die type), but this hasn't helped the PC at all. because his overall level is lower with the template (compared to the other PCs), he doesn't have the hit points to stay in combat very long. in fact, in every major battle the half-dragon has participated in, he's been unconcious by round three.

the abilities of a half-dragon aren't that great, either. the breath weapon in only usable once per day, and neither the damage nor the DC improve as the character gains levels.

the half-celestial and -fiend will also have hit point problems, but at least their special abilities increase with their levels.

But he can deal out damage. I think that ecl's in general are highly risky. The half Dragon actually has a darn good con to go with his d12 HD, so his HP problem is not near as bad as it should be.

 

[Yawbug_Bug]

MM Templates

I have a player and she is running a 1/2 silver dragon cleric of Io/wizard. I the eyes of another PC of a standard race the only major differ is the higher stats of the 1/2 dragon.
But some food for thought look at the 2nd ed. half-dragons, the 3ed are quite on the Crappy side, so try to convert the 2nd into the 3rd.

 

[Don Carnage]

The Problem As I've Experienced It

The level adjustment (the ECL 'hit') is too big, plain and simple. Even a next-to-nothing adjustment of +1 is big enough to be a pain; you're 4th level when everyone else is 5th. It's difficult being behind in levels, and WILL lead to frustration.

The solution as I see it is that the party (and campaign) has to be based around the templeted character, if you're going to have them. You can't take away from the templeted character because he then becomes non-viable (read: useless). Please play one if you don't agree.

In the current game I run all the characters are 5th level, including the Half-Celestial. I had to compensate the normal human wizard by giving him extras because I allowed the Half-Celestial. In this way, you bring everyone up instead of reducing someone to the point of being superfluous. I feel this is the only solution that works if you're going to allow templeted characters.

It also has the virtue of making everyone happy.

 

[Spatula]

Re: The Problem As I've Experienced It

The level adjustment (the ECL 'hit') is too big, plain and simple. Even a next-to-nothing adjustment of +1 is big enough to be a pain; you're 4th level when everyone else is 5th. It's difficult being behind in levels, and WILL lead to frustration.

Depends on the group, I guess. Being behind 1 level is not a big deal. Being behind 2 levels is more of an issue if your character is a spellcaster but it is still playable. Such characters are hardly worthless to the party.