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MM2 Excerpt: Adamantine Dragon question
- Thread starter Mengu
- Start date
The "different target" bit would seem to imply that the claw attacks have to be on the one target, yeah. That said, I wouldn't have a huge problem with hitting multiple people with the claws. In most cases it's going to be tactically optimal to focus on one guy anyway.
It's the one action, so you wouldn't take a penalty for clawing or biting someone else other than the marker.
It's the one action, so you wouldn't take a penalty for clawing or biting someone else other than the marker.
Grazzt
Demon Lord
This is how I read it, and how I would run it. (Though I'd probably have the dragon claw the same target 4x, just for maximum efficiency honestly.)
Thanks guys, that's what I thought.
Right, in most situations. I was thinking if the dragon ever took someone down with it, if it would be able to switch target for remaining attacks. That's where it makes a difference.
I was also thinking if it doesn't want to bother with a defender too much, especially a battlerager, it could spare one claw attack for the marking character, then 3 attacks on a second and bite a third. Action point, do it again, but this time 4 attacks go on the same person you attacked with 3 attacks previous action, and the bite goes on the battlerager so the ongoing damage will wipe away his temp HP's, and he'll be denied the BRV bonus to damage. +26 vs Reflex will hit some characters very easily, so that could be 7 hits on one character, and some more damage spread around.
This dragon is certainly a respectable threat.
Right, in most situations. I was thinking if the dragon ever took someone down with it, if it would be able to switch target for remaining attacks. That's where it makes a difference.
I was also thinking if it doesn't want to bother with a defender too much, especially a battlerager, it could spare one claw attack for the marking character, then 3 attacks on a second and bite a third. Action point, do it again, but this time 4 attacks go on the same person you attacked with 3 attacks previous action, and the bite goes on the battlerager so the ongoing damage will wipe away his temp HP's, and he'll be denied the BRV bonus to damage. +26 vs Reflex will hit some characters very easily, so that could be 7 hits on one character, and some more damage spread around.
This dragon is certainly a respectable threat.
How does targeting attacks sequentially like this (assuming this is how it's supposed to work) interact with marks? If the dragon targets a non-fighter with its first claw attack, does it get -2 to hit and trigger the fighter's combat challenge because it's making an attack that doesn't include the fighter? So it has to attack the fighter first to avoid triggering the mark to-hit penalty and combat challenge?
Otherwise, the dragon can't commit to attacking the fighter with the bite when it gets there; maybe it will attack a third nearby PC, so it would be strange for it to be able to (and it specifically has to take the bite attack after the claw attacks, so it can't start with the bite attack). Thoughts?
DragonXNIK
First Post
By RAW, from what I remember of another thread where a chain lightning effect was discussed, any attack roll that does not result from a Burst/Blast/Area attack, and that does not target the fighter, will gain the mark penalty, and trigger combat challenge (or divine challenge, or aegis, or fury/grasp).
I think that is basically how it's intended to work as well, if you ignore the defender while he's still got you marked, and he's still standing, you have to pay the toll. So it looks like if the dragon chooses to use it's at will attack suite, the defender is gonna get a free hit in no matter what because of the bite.
Well, this is exactly why I asked the first question. 3 people seemed to think there would be no penalty as long as the dragon had the intention of attacking the fighter with one of those attacks, which is what I was going with.
I have no idea what would happen if the dragon missed one of the earlier attacks, a bard decided to slide the fighter out of the way with improved cunning, and the dragon can no longer attack the fighter. Do we rewind time and the dragon suddenly starts taking penalties to his attacks, and the fighter gets his combat challenge attack before he was slid?
Really odd timing. If virtue of cunning was an immediate reaction I guess this wouldn't be a problem since all of the dragon's attacks would first have to be resolved. But since it's a free action, it can cause some funky interaction, unless I'm missing something.
I'm going to have to disagree here. The way I read the power is that you make 4 Claw attacks against a single target and then a Bite attack against a different target. I read it this way because it explicitly states "a different target" for the Bite attack, which to me implies that the first actions must be a single target.
As for the Fighter Mark question, I'd agree that as long as the Dragon in one of its attacks (by my reading the 4 Claws or a Bite, by other people's readings any of the attacks) then there is no -2 penalty because the Dragon included the Fighter in his attack/action.
It's funny, I loved 4e at the start because all the keywords made it simpler and easier to rule things like this. But now it's just being cluttered. Hopefully the wording of the Dragon will be fixed by the time MM2 is published.
As for the Fighter Mark question, I'd agree that as long as the Dragon in one of its attacks (by my reading the 4 Claws or a Bite, by other people's readings any of the attacks) then there is no -2 penalty because the Dragon included the Fighter in his attack/action.
It's funny, I loved 4e at the start because all the keywords made it simpler and easier to rule things like this. But now it's just being cluttered. Hopefully the wording of the Dragon will be fixed by the time MM2 is published.
