MM2 sneak peak / new warforged art

[Plane Sailing]

Because the entire point is to provoke people. He knows every time, at least one someone will bite.

Derren, the idea is that you don't need STATS for things you don't fight.

Anyway, why have you two got to be on about this in every thread? We know you don't like 4E, but why do you need to provoke?

Except Derren hasn't said anything (in this forum at least) that was in the slightest way positive for months. So I think to be that single minded you have to be here simply for trolling.

That's why he's on my ignore list.

Derren is participating in this thread.

You guys, on the other hand, are attacking him.

Stop it unless you want to be suspended.

 

[avin]

Derren, the idea is that you don't need STATS for things you don't fight.

Anyway, why have you two got to be on about this in every thread? We know you don't like 4E, but why do you need to provoke?

You should read my posts more carefully before posting things such as this.

I run 3 fourth edition games.

I like 4E but I don't agree with some design decisions (elemental chaos, cartoonish art for frightening monsters, etc). By now I have been ignored at least for one people who thinks I'm just a 4E basher, which is really not the case

Back to the train: my point is I think there should be good monsters there. Why prevent a party of attacking a good creature by mistake or even en purpose?

 

[avin]

If you run a 4e game is it really that big a deal to change the alignment for the dragons in your world to whatever you want it to be? I'd guess most 4e DM/player probably agree with the change or don't care either way. I know I agree.

I think the point is why Wotc doesn't put any GOOD creatures to fight? Why the civilized races described as monsters at MM, If my memory serves me, are described as renegades or thugs?

MM4E is "GOOOOOOOOOOD vs evil" and only masters who wan't to play some grey or dark campaigns need to adapt. If people care or don't care, like it or not, doesn't matter, that's a fact. Core 4E is points of light, good parties against evil dudes.

I dislike it and wish my three fourth edition games, my Dragon and Dungeon subscriber articles provided me some more mature motivations than "kill because it's evil", which ultimately has been.

Yes, this is probably an ALL EDITION D&D problem, but 4E pushes it a bit more

 

[OchreJelly]

Yes, this is probably an ALL EDITION D&D problem, but 4E pushes it a bit more

And this is because of two of 4E's stated design goals.
1) that the player characters are heroes battling against the darkness.
2) that the implied setting takes place in a traditional fantasy world.

Yes all these renegades in a POL setting will be traditional fantasy types like humans, elves dwarves etc. The heroes are protectors of these sorts. Asking for anything different is going to lead to frustration since WoTC are sticking to these goals. Sure, individual campaign settings may shake things up a bit, but ultimately you're going to get heroes battling monsters in published materials.

All of this is moot, really, considering that there are plenty of published stats for humans, elves, dwarves etc. if you want to run an evil campaign that battles these types of creatures there's really nothing stopping you.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Why the civilized races described as monsters at MM, If my memory serves me, are described as renegades or thugs?

Your memory is not serving you correctly:

1) Human guard
2) Human rabble
3) Human lackey
4) Dragonborn soldier
5) Dragonborn gladiator
6) Dragonborn champion
7) Dwarf bolter
8) Dwarf hammerer
9) Elf archer
10) Elf scout
11) Halfling slinger
12) Halfling stout
13) Eladrin fey knight
14) Eladrin twilight incanter
15) Bralani of autumn winds
16) Ghaele of winter

Here's over a dozen examples of civilized humanoids that have no implied background as a renegade or thug. And these are just MM entries, there are many more examples in the Compendium.

Being Unaligned doesn't mean that you can't be a "good guy."

 

[Kishin]

Derren is participating in this thread.

You guys, on the other hand, are attacking him.

Stop it unless you want to be suspended.

With the utmost respect to you, PS, I disagree with the implied definition of 'participation' therein. I'm speaking with complete honesty when I say I simply cannot see how that line of commentary can be construed as anything short of thinly veiled edition war threadcrapping. So, with that said, I'll take that suspension on point of honor.

Folks, if you disagree with a moderator or an admin, the right thing to do is to drop them an email. Which is what I'm going to do with Kishin right now, since I'm around and PS isn't. ~ PCat

 

[Derren]

And this is because of two of 4E's stated design goals.
1) that the player characters are heroes battling against the darkness.
2) that the implied setting takes place in a traditional fantasy world.

Yes all these renegades in a POL setting will be traditional fantasy types like humans, elves dwarves etc. The heroes are protectors of these sorts. Asking for anything different is going to lead to frustration since WoTC are sticking to these goals. Sure, individual campaign settings may shake things up a bit, but ultimately you're going to get heroes battling monsters in published materials.

All of this is moot, really, considering that there are plenty of published stats for humans, elves, dwarves etc. if you want to run an evil campaign that battles these types of creatures there's really nothing stopping you.

I see several disadvantages with this approach.

1. D&D Is, and always was a toolbox, especially now as the default setting is very vague. A PCs vs. everyone approach might fit a PoL setting, but there are many different types of setting in which this wouldn't be appropriate.

2. It adds to the "4E = combat" impression. With its heavy empathize of tactical combat 4E creates this impression among many people, even those who like this system very much. This is especially "problematic" as 4Es stated goal is to attract new players, and what impression would they get of PnP RPGs when the world resembles a giant arena where its the PCs vs. everyone else not in a city wall?

3. If WotC, instead of making good monsters unaligned simply does not publish good monsters it makes it harder to do some scenarios. For example what if the PCs want to team up with an angelic host or other good "monsters"? The DM has to create the stats from the scratch. (Also that monsters are not really able to fight other monsters is also a problem. But that is a different issue). That would only be a problem in a few games, but as I said in 1, D&D is a toolbox and imo should support as many different styles as possible.

4. It breaks the D&D lore. For example metallic dragons have always been good. Sure, 4E is about slaying sacred cows, but that cow didn't needed to be killed. If someone wanted the PCs to fight against metallic dragons he would have simply have such a dragon attack the party.

That metallic dragons are unaligned isn't the real issue. That is easily houseruled. The problem is that this is just a symptom of the real problem which is the design decision of not having (many) good monsters as there is no need for them. Imo there is.
I simply see no advantage in making traditional good monsters unaligned, but several disadvantages. No huge, gamebraking disadvantages, but (small, annoying) disadvantages nonetheless.

 

[avin]

Being Unaligned doesn't mean that you can't be a "good guy."

I wrote a long answer but my connection timed out and was losr... *sigh*

TLDR: thanks for pointing the "normal" guys (my MM is gathering dust with compendium), but that doesn't change the fact they are unaligned, not good. Good is a force to stay forever safe in 4E core, you gotta fight evil. That's one of the aspects I despize on this edition, but that doesn't prevent me to take another route and play.

I just ignore some 4E assumptions I think are immature and keep my 4E games moving like there's no alignment around

 

[avin]

I simply see no advantage in making traditional good monsters unaligned, but several disadvantages. No huge, gamebraking disadvantages, but (small, annoying) disadvantages nonetheless.

That's something I'd write in portuguese, but english's not my native language so I keep posting like some school boy

It's comfortable to DMs who just trow enemies because "they are evil".

It's not that comfortable to DMs who build motivations and situations where good people are mislead to fight, have to fight each other to survive, etc.

 

[Rechan]

So... anyone know when the next update is coming?