[MMIII] Yes. Thank you.

[Garnfellow]

My only major problem with the MMIII was that a lot of the CRs, especially for Unholy Toughness-boosted undead, were far short of what they should be. For example, the drowned one has 20HD and Unholy Toughness. It has 150 hp, fast healing 5, and an aura of save-or-die (drowning). Does this sound like a CR 8?

What the ????????

Could it be a typo for CR 18?

Are there other mitigating factors? (ie, its primary attack is nonlethal or something.)

In the designer interview for the MMIII, they specifically said that they felt they had a much better handle on high-level CRs in this book.

 

[coyote6]

Are there other mitigating factors? (ie, its primary attack is nonlethal or something.)

It attacks at +12/+12 (1d8+12, 2 slams) w/pre-factored Power Attack (it would be +17/+17, 1d8+7 w/o PA).

It also has Cleave, Great Cleave, Hide & MOve Silently +20, Spot +20, AC 19, Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +12. And forces Con checks (not Fort, but Con), starting at DC 10 & increasing by 1 per round to everyone within 30 feet; failure means unconsciousness, drop to -1 hp the round after that (if still in the aura), and die the round after that (if still in the aura).

Maybe it is CR 8; I haven't playtested it to see. But about the only way it looks easily defeatable by 8th level characters is if they have wide open spaces and more maneuverability. Plop a drowned in regular-sized dungeon, and PCs will die.

Perhaps if water breathing protects from its aura -- but I'm not sure it does. "All breathing creatures within 30 feet . . . are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe."

Still, even without the drowning aura, with fast healing 5, 150 hp, and those attacks, it looks like a tough CR 8. Worse AC & reach than a stone giant, but more hp and fast healing. Add in the drowning aura, and you'd better hope water breathing helps, and that you've got access to it.

Oh, it's Enviroment is Any, so it's perfectly capable of turning up anywhere, not just conveniently located next to large bodies of water that might suggest to PCs that having water breathing handy is a Good Idea (TM).

Edit: it's not CR 18, though; it's not that tough.

It isn't alone in the questionable CRs, though. The CR 7 arrow demon (full attack: +14/+14/+9/+9 for 2d6+6 each, doesn't draw AoOs for firing while threatened; 135 hp; AC 19) might be kind of shaky. Compare with a hellcat, for instance.

Then there's the CR 11 mivilorn, with its 325 hp, swallow whole, breath weapon, and charging bite (which lets it swallow hole on a charge w/o having to grapple). It's SR is low, though.

(IMO, though, they don't look wildly wrong; maybe just a couple of points.)

 

[MDSnowman]

The MM3 is at least the third d20 version of redcaps. GR had one in Fang & Fury, the ToH II had one, and I'm pretty sure there was a version in some other d20 book. (And I thought there was a version in one of WotC's online features or adventures.)

The nuckalavee is another Celtic beastie that's shown up in several places.

VanRichten's guide to Shadow Fey had 'em too.

 

[the Jester]

Some of the CRs are questionable, but it's a generally outstanding book.

I think some playtesting is required re: those CRs... we're gaming tomorrow.

 

[RichGreen]

my favourites

Hi,

Haven't read the whole book yet but these caught my eye:

Drowned (not sure about the CR either)
Death Giant
Eldritch Giant
Glaistig
Goatfolk
Grisgol
Harssaf
Justicator
Needletooth Swarm
Petal
Rakshasas -- Ak'chazar & Natharune
Redcap
Rejkar
updated Yugoloths (although the ultroloth is too weedy)

Overall, it's a good book, better than MM II and probably as good as the Fiend Folio.

Cheers


Richard

 

[Garnfellow]

It attacks at +12/+12 (1d8+12, 2 slams) w/pre-factored Power Attack (it would be +17/+17, 1d8+7 w/o PA).

It also has Cleave, Great Cleave, Hide & MOve Silently +20, Spot +20, AC 19, Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +12. And forces Con checks (not Fort, but Con), starting at DC 10 & increasing by 1 per round to everyone within 30 feet; failure means unconsciousness, drop to -1 hp the round after that (if still in the aura), and die the round after that (if still in the aura).

Weirdness. If it were a Fort check instead of a Con, I could almost see where the designers are coming from: starting at DC 10, most 8th-level characters would have a pretty good shot at making the save for a few rounds, building suspense nicely as they try to take down this big, damage absorbing nasty with a relatively low AC.

But a Con check -- assuming an average Con score of 14, with 4 PCs you've got about a 50/50 shot at having 1 person standing at the end of the fourth round. Assuming I've got this right, on average 1 PC fails their save in round 1, 1 fails in round 2, 0 fail in round 3, and 1 fails in round 4.

Even if every standing PC has a higher initiative count and does an automatic 10 points of damage each round, at the end of 4 rounds they've done 110 points of damage, but the freak has healed 15 hp. Time to run!!!

 

[Staffan]

It attacks at +12/+12 (1d8+12, 2 slams) w/pre-factored Power Attack (it would be +17/+17, 1d8+7 w/o PA).

Pre-factored power attacks? That's kinda cool

 

[Mouseferatu]

Perhaps if water breathing protects from its aura -- but I'm not sure it does. "All breathing creatures within 30 feet . . . are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe."

It never even crossed my mind that it might not. Creatures are treated as if beneath water; water breathing grants the ability to breathe water. Seems pretty straightforward to me. In fact, given that almost nothing else protects against the aura, I'd say it's almost essential that water breathing do so.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It never even crossed my mind that it might not. Creatures are treated as if beneath water; water breathing grants the ability to breathe water. Seems pretty straightforward to me. In fact, given that almost nothing else protects against the aura, I'd say it's almost essential that water breathing do so.

And actually...if creatures are treated as underwater don't you get [con bonus] rounds of holding your breath before you go unconscious and start to drown? So if the party spread out and started firing missile weapons at the thing, then whoever it charges double-moves after two rounds (to get a few breaths and reset the [con bonus] limit...) ?

 

[Mouseferatu]

And actually...if creatures are treated as underwater don't you get [con bonus] rounds of holding your breath before you go unconscious and start to drown? So if the party spread out and started firing missile weapons at the thing, then whoever it charges double-moves after two rounds (to get a few breaths and reset the [con bonus] limit...) ?

Actually, not in this particular case. The entry specifies that part of the aura's magic causes victims to drown faster than normal. (Don't have the book in front of me, so I can't quote the exact mechanics.)

But that's an expressly stated change from the norm. It doesn't expressly state that the water breathing issue differs from the norm, so I feel it safe to assume it applies as normally.

(In fact, that's usually a safe motto, IME. If the books don't specify something as an exception to the standard rules, it's not an exception to the standard rules. )