D&D 5E Moar Feats

[keterys]

Yup. And it's exactly what I'm doing. Like this:

If you have one odd-numbered score: Half-stat feat > 2 points of ability score
If you don't: 2 points of ability score > half-stat feat

I will be the first to agree that if you aren't trying to "even up" a stat, half-stat feats are Suck with a capital Suck. But if you have that one odd stat, and you're done maxing out your primaries (or the odd stat is a primary for some reason), half-stat feats can be quite good.

Eh, feats which give out a stat point should also give out a stat point's worth of remaining feat. Otherwise they should only ever be taken as the last stat point you ever take.

Which is to say, it would be bad design if feats are balanced assuming +1 to a stat is worth 3/4 of a feat, since we explicitly know it's 1/2 a feat

 

[Dausuul]

Eh, feats which give out a stat point should also give out a stat point's worth of remaining feat. Otherwise they should only ever be taken as the last stat point you ever take.

Which is to say, it would be bad design if feats are balanced assuming +1 to a stat is worth 3/4 of a feat, since we explicitly know it's 1/2 a feat

It doesn't work that way. The value of "+1 stat" is either equal to the value of "+2 stat," or equal to zero. And since players know ahead of time which one it is, you can assume they'll only take "+1 stat" when its value equals "+2 stat."

When doing balance, you have to assume that players will pick feats that work for their characters. You don't balance Great Weapon Master on the assumption that it will be taken by 1/3 sword-and-boarders, 1/3 dual wielders, and 1/3 great weapon wielders. You balance it on the assumption that pretty much everyone who takes it is going to be wielding a two-handed weapon.

With "half stat" feats, it's silly to balance them on the assumption that 50% of the time they will be taken by people with an even number in the relevant stat! That isn't going to happen. Most everyone who takes such a feat is going to be "evening up" an odd value, and won't have any other odd-valued stats they care about. Many of them won't have any other odd-numbered stats at all. And in that situation, the value of +1 stat is exactly equal to the value of +2 stat*.

That's why the secondary benefit of such feats is so small. It is, essentially, compensation for having a leftover stat point. In the absence of half stat feats, the value of that leftover stat point is zero, so even a tiny secondary benefit is better.

[SIZE=-2]*Except Strength, where the value is reduced by 5 pounds of encumbrance. Woo.[/SIZE]

 

[jadrax]

Except Strength, where the value is reduced by 5 pounds of encumbrance. Woo.

The amount of distance you cover in a running Jump is also equal to your Strength score.

 

[Dausuul]

The amount of distance you cover in a running Jump is also equal to your Strength score.

5 pounds of encumbrance and 1 foot of jump distance. I stand corrected.

But hey, that gives us a metric! What should the secondary benefit of a "half stat" feat be worth? 5 pounds of encumbrance and 1 foot of jump distance. Clearly, Tavern Brawler and Durable are both way overpowered.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

It doesn't work that way. The value of "+1 stat" is either equal to the value of "+2 stat," or equal to zero. And since players know ahead of time which one it is, you can assume they'll only take "+1 stat" when its value equals "+2 stat."

When doing balance, you have to assume that players will pick feats that work for their characters. You don't balance Great Weapon Master on the assumption that it will be taken by 1/3 sword-and-boarders, 1/3 dual wielders, and 1/3 great weapon wielders. You balance it on the assumption that pretty much everyone who takes it is going to be wielding a two-handed weapon.

With "half stat" feats, it's silly to balance them on the assumption that 50% of the time they will be taken by people with an even number in the relevant stat! That isn't going to happen. Most everyone who takes such a feat is going to be "evening up" an odd value, and won't have any other odd-valued stats they care about. And in that situation, the value of +1 stat is exactly equal to the value of +2 stat*.

That's why the secondary benefit of such feats is so small. It is, essentially, compensation for having a leftover stat point. In the absence of half stat feats, the value of that leftover stat point is zero, so even a tiny secondary benefit is better.

[SIZE=-2]*Except Strength, where the value is reduced by 5 pounds of encumbrance. Woo.[/SIZE]

I disagree with the assumption that all half-feats will suck. In the alpha, Resilience gives you a save proficiency, which even multiclassing doesn't do anymore, and is thus the only way for non-sorcerers to get proficiency on concentration saves. (Not a bad idea to get dex saves either.) Armor proficiency feats are half-feats too, and you're probably bumping your AC by at least a point or two if you're taking one of them. Even Tavern Brawler allows you to grapple as a bonus action - that alone can be a huge benefit, especially in conjunction with sneak attack or a monk unarmed strike, or even just punching a wizard in the face to force a concentration save.

So I think we're back to saying that a few feats are going to be awesome and nearly mandatory for min-maxers (Great Weapon Master, maybe Sentinel, some others); many will be good but situational or build-dependent; and some will be more specialized or just sucky. (I'd argue that elemental adept and durable both fall in the "specialized" category.) half-feats will probably tend towards that second category.

 

[Dausuul]

I disagree with the assumption that all half-feats will suck. In the alpha, Resilience gives you a save proficiency, which even multiclassing doesn't do anymore, and is thus the only way for non-sorcerers to get proficiency on concentration saves. (Not a bad idea to get dex saves either.) Armor proficiency feats are half-feats too, and you're probably bumping your AC by at least a point or two if you're taking one of them.

If that's the case, then I will readily agree that Durable and Tavern Brawler are wretchedly bad.

It's all a question of opportunity cost. As long as the secondary benefit of a half stat feat is worth less than +2 stat and more than nothing, you can only really judge it by comparison with other half stat feats. If they're all on par with Durable and Tavern Brawler, then Durable and Tavern Brawler are perfectly good feats. If better options exist, they're not.

 

[Juriel]

Even Tavern Brawler allows you to grapple as a bonus action - that alone can be a huge benefit, especially in conjunction with sneak attack or a monk unarmed strike, or even just punching a wizard in the face to force a concentration save.

Monks and Rogues need their bonus actions for so many other things...

 

[jadrax]

But hey, that gives us a metric! What should the secondary benefit of a "half stat" feat be worth? 5 pounds of encumbrance and 1 foot of jump distance. Clearly, Tavern Brawler and Durable are both way overpowered.

Nerf them! Nerf them all! ;o)

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, basically the reroll adds almost nothing to your average damage and is almost never actually relevant. It's kind of like an even worse version of the Great Weapon fighting style.

Considering that I have to pick out the 1s in my pile of d6's, reroll them...and functionally this gives me very little payoff...that actually looks terrible.

 

[keterys]

It doesn't work that way. The value of "+1 stat" is either equal to the value of "+2 stat," or equal to zero. And since players know ahead of time which one it is, you can assume they'll only take "+1 stat" when its value equals "+2 stat."

No, the value of +1 stat is equal to +1 stat. Whether that's in point buy, feat cost, magic item, or whatever. Because you can keep adding onto things, it eventually works out. It doesn't matter if right this very second it happens to be slightly better (or worse!).

Alternatively, change point buy to have odd stats cost the same as even stats and roll d3s that you multiply by 2 for rolled stats. That's cool too.

Hopefully, there will actually be some feats where you want the other half of the feat, and the +1 stat makes your even an odd and you'll fix that up later. Hopefully, they didn't screw up the basic balance of feats.