D&D 5E Mob rule and grappling

[Venerable Inceptor]

Can the rule for "handling mobs" (DMG 250) be adapted for mobs that attempt to grapple? The procedure given involves calculating the d20 roll needed to hit based on the target's AC minus the attackers' attack bonus, but grappling involves opposed skill checks rather than an attack roll vs. AC, so it doesn't map smoothly onto the given procedure.

How would this work? Suppose those same eight orcs attempt to grapple a 3rd level fighter, who has STR 18 (+4) and is proficient in Athletics, so give him an "average grapple DC" of 16 (base 10 + 6 for his Strength (Athletics) bonus). The orcs have STR 16, so +3 for Strength (Athletics) checks, and thus need a roll of 16 - 3 = 13 to grapple the fighter. According to the chart, this means 3 attackers are needed for 1 to hit, so the fighter ends up grappled by 8 ÷ 3 = 2 orcs.

 

[5ekyu]

Can the rule for "handling mobs" (DMG 250) be adapted for mobs that attempt to grapple? The procedure given involves calculating the d20 roll needed to hit based on the target's AC minus the attackers' attack bonus, but grappling involves opposed skill checks rather than an attack roll vs. AC, so it doesn't map smoothly onto the given procedure.

How would this work? Suppose those same eight orcs attempt to grapple a 3rd level fighter, who has STR 18 (+4) and is proficient in Athletics, so give him an "average grapple DC" of 16 (base 10 + 6 for his Strength (Athletics) bonus). The orcs have STR 16, so +3 for Strength (Athletics) checks, and thus need a roll of 16 - 3 = 13 to grapple the fighter. According to the chart, this means 3 attackers are needed for 1 to hit, so the fighter ends up grappled by 8 ÷ 3 = 2 orcs.

It can be but if you do this you significantly impact the value of numbers of lesser foes. Part of the reason the mob rule works is the damage is the same as one attsck and against numbers of lesser the players have more hp. The output is moderated.

But if you extend the same approach to non-damage status and condition effects, that moderation is gone. Auto-Grapple then prone shove's let numbers pin down a fighter, prevent him getting up, etc. HP have little meaning then.

I would say - use with caution.

I would not ho this route and instead go with advsntage.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

On the one hand, you're definitely changing the odds, because each grapple attempt is only using one die instead of two. When each side makes a roll, it favors the side with a bigger bonus (the PC), because the result skews toward average.

On the other hand, there's precedent for this sort of thing, in the passive skill check rules. Passive checks exist primarily to ensure that a smaller group isn't automatically overwhelmed by a larger group, merely as a result of their rolling so many dice. If you have twenty orcs attempting to grapple a dude, and they each get to roll a die, then they're eventually going to succeed because they have so many tries.

To give the fighter a fighting chance, without the stats being completely overwhelmed by the volume of dice, assume each orc rolls a 10 on their check. If the fighter rolls higher on his own check, then he manages to overcome all of the grapplers, in exactly the same way that a rogue could roll well on a Stealth check and hide from all of the orcs.

 

[iserith]

I wouldn't imagine the mob rules work great with contests. I would just have one orc take the Help action for another which could result in as many as four contests at advantage for eight orcs. In all likelihood, the poor fighter is well grappled and/or shoved prone with this tactic.

 

[Venerable Inceptor]

I would not ho this route and instead go with advsntage.

Problem is that the Help Action, as written, doesn't seem to allow for granting allies advantage in grappling attacks. It specifically states, "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first ATTACK ROLL is made with advantage," but grappling doesn't involve an attack roll.

 

[5ekyu]

Problem is that the Help Action, as written, doesn't seem to allow for granting allies advantage in grappling attacks. It specifically states, "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first ATTACK ROLL is made with advantage," but grappling doesn't involve an attack roll.

Read the first paragraph.


"When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn."

Grapple is an ability check.

 

[Oofta]

Problem is that the Help Action, as written, doesn't seem to allow for granting allies advantage in grappling attacks. It specifically states, "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first ATTACK ROLL is made with advantage," but grappling doesn't involve an attack roll.

A grapple is considered "a special melee attack" so I would rule that it qualifies.

However, using the mob rules for a grapple check (or a shove attack to knock prone for that matter) is a bit problematic from a fun/strategy standpoint. Any time a group of orcs fights the party if you use the mob rules the check is going to work. That seems a bit overpowered if it only requires two of the orcs.

A dog-pile should work at least sometimes, I just think this is a little too easy.

 

[Venerable Inceptor]

Read the first paragraph.


"When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn."

Grapple is an ability check.

That paragraph refers to "tasks," not attacks, which are covered in the second paragraph ("Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you"). Since grappling is an attack ("When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple" [PHB 195]), it falls under what's said in the second paragraph, which only mentions attack rolls as gaining advantage.

 

[5ekyu]

That paragraph refers to "tasks," not attacks, which are covered in the second paragraph ("Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you"). Since grappling is an attack ("When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple" [PHB 195]), it falls under what's said in the second paragraph, which only mentions attack rolls as gaining advantage.

It's still resolved eith an athletics check. "Task" has no mechanical meaning. Just like the second graph let's you gain advsntage on an "attack roll" the first graph let's you gain advsntage on an "ability check."

Look check out sage compendium where it's made clear...

Here is just one bit... it clarifies that the grapple roll is an ability check. The answers before it cover it more vaguely. But basically, just because an ability check is part of an attsck, it's still an ability check, not an attack roll.

When you make a Strength (Athletics) check to grapple
or shove someone, are you making an attack roll? No.
That check is an ability check, so game effects tied to attack
rolls don’t apply to it. Going back to an earlier question, the
hex spell could be used to diminish a grappler’s effective-
ness. And if the grappler’s target is under the effect of the
Dodge action, that action doesn’t inhibit the grapple, since
Dodge doesn’t affect ability checks.


Also notice from SAC
Are attack rolls and saving throws basically specialized
ability checks? They aren’t. It’s easy to mistake the three
rolls as three faces of the same thing, because they each
involve rolling a d20, adding any modifiers, and compar-
ing the total to a Difficulty Class, and they’re all subject to
advantage and disadvantage. In short, they share the same
procedure for determining success or failure.
Despite this common procedure, the three rolls are sep-
arate from each other. If something in the game, like the
guidance spell, affects one of them, the other two aren’t
affected unless the rules specifically say so. The next few
questions touch on this point again.

Can you get a critical hit on an ability check? For ex-
ample, on a grapple attempt, does a critical win, or the
highest number? Ability checks don’t score critical hits.
Attack rolls do.


****

If none of that is at all convincing look at the DMG rules for when granting advantage is appropriate and the fourth bullet

Previous actions (whether taken by the character making the attempt or some other creature) improve the chances of success.

If that's not enough, forget it.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Seems like an easier way would be to give a static +1 bonus for each helping NPC up to 7, since you can only put 8 NPCs around one character on a grid map. Roll athletics for the grappling NPCs Str + Pof + #of NPCs "helping the first" and the player roles Athletice or Acrobatics skill check, the higher wins. That makes it one check which favors the PC being grappled but it also ensures each NPC counts in the attempt. Even a Barbarian 24STR with rage advantage around 22 average role vs eight STR10 NPCs around 17 average will likely succeed but vs eight STR20 NPCs around 22 average are likely to bring him down. The rolls vary so everyone has a chance.