Modernist and Postmodernist RPGs?

Khuxan

First Post
Studying for English earlier in the day, I wondered if certain role-playing games are or could be postmodernist or modernist.

Is that a worthwhile distinction to make?
Can games fit into literary styles when they are so much dependent on their participants?
Are RPGs, by virtue of their open-endedness and limitlessness, inevitably postmodern?
Are some RPGs, by virtue of their inflexible rule-resolution systems, absolute alignments and obsession with character progress, inevitably modernist?

For example, I think Mortal Coil is probably postmodern - reality can be shaped by the players.

I only have an imperfect understanding of modernism and postmodernism, and I'm interested in your thoughts.
 

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jim pinto

First Post
Modernism is a response to Romanticism. As more and more people become disillusioned with the state of the world before and during World War I, especially those artists and writers in self-imposed exile, modernism grows to encompass all creative human thought that places the power of the individual above all things. Since progress could not longer be considered "good" at any cost, many writers began to question the value of machines and industrialization. War and the Romantics became the enemy of humanism. It would eventually lead to Liberalism (not be confused with left-wing) in politics, evolution in science, Marxism, existentialism in literature, and progressivism in art (cubism, etc.)

James Joyce, Hemingway, T.S Eliot, Neitzche, Huxley, Camus, Modrian, and Picasso would become the most important voices of the modernist movement in literature and art.

In RPG terms, D&D could be considered the original modernist RPG, placing the character at the forefront of the story. GURPS and others could also remain modernist, with a slight deconstruction bent. Most games coming out as a response to D&D and it's hundreds of "improvements" would still remain modernist, because the structure of gaming does not change, even though the rules do.

Post-modernism is a response to modernism. Because modernism never fully realizes its goals, and because the rate of information accelerates, post-modernism begins to unravel the ideals of its predecessors. Postmodernity concentrates on the tensions of difference and similarity erupting from processes of globalization: the the accelerating circulation of people, the increasingly dense and frequent cross-cultural interactions, and the unavoidable intersections of local and global knowledge.

There are so many definitions of post-modernism, however, you'll never get two people to agree to what it truly is. Most story-telling that takes place in Entertainment today is post-modern, whether people like it or not.

My degree emphasis was in post-modernism and I'm still a little vague on everything it encompasses. Lichtenstein, Jackson Pollack, Dada, Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, Jean-Paul Sartre, Camus (again), and Franz Kafka would become important post-modernist and deconstructionists. Even Noam Chomsky is an important post-modernist.

In my opinion, most postmodern literature is just a "play" on the things that everyone is familiar with. There is very little creativity in post-modernism, but a great deal of sociopathy and nihilism (not to be confused with existentialism).

In RPG terms, most any INDIE game where the rules are striped down to the essentials of play and exposed to the reader would be considered post-modern.

Post-structuralism is probably a more appropriate term to associate to this new wave of design, however.

Certainly these movements have affected the "art of game design" which has historic routes, but very recent growth. Video games certainly entered the post-modern age much faster than RPGs ever did. Greg Costikyan has written an article about it here . And I've talked about this briefly on my site before.

Man. I can't believe you brought this up. Or that I responded with this much information at 3 in the morning.

Good start, I think. But I would love to read other people's feedback.
 

Korgoth

First Post
jim pinto said:
In RPG terms, D&D could be considered the original modernist RPG, placing the character at the forefront of the story.

I don't find this to be an accurate characterization of D&D. It probably accurately characterizes a certain style of play, but I don't think that is the style that was prevalent at the game's founding.

I think D&D is (originally) a game about expeditions into unknown places. It did not place much emphasis on "character" or "story".
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
I define postmodernism as putting quote marks round the past. It's ironic, playful, self-referential and breaks the 'fourth wall'. PM is knowledgeable about what has gone before, but not very creative, like Quentin Tarantino.

Hackmaster feels quite postmodern, given that it started life as a fictitious game in a cartoon strip and seems to be not entirely serious. The similar 'Papers & Paychecks' cartoon in 1e D&D might be the first example of postmodernism in rpging.

HOL (Human Occupied Landfill) is the most postmodern game I've heard of.

There's a suggested scenario in Over The Edge in which the PCs discover they are characters in a roleplaying game. Which I suspect would suck.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
jim pinto said:
It would eventually lead to Liberalism (not be confused with left-wing) in politics, evolution in science, Marxism, existentialism in literature, and progressivism in art (cubism, etc.)

If Modernism is the stuff just before and during WWI (Wikipedia places it arising around 1890), it most certainly did not lead to evolution is science - Darwin wrote On the Origin of Species in 1859 - that's before the American Civil War.
 

Korgoth

First Post
Umbran said:
If Modernism is the stuff just before and during WWI (Wikipedia places it arising around 1890), it most certainly did not lead to evolution is science - Darwin wrote On the Origin of Species in 1859 - that's before the American Civil War.

I tend to think of "Modernism" as arising with guys like Descartes, who posited an individual absolutely abstracted from the rest of reality as the starting point for knowledge... a kind of mathematicist answer to late- and post-medieval skepticism (like Cusanus and Montaigne). So personally when I say "Modernism" I'm thinking of the individualism of the 17th century onwards (which Postmodernism rejects by exploding the concept of the individual, and Medievalism rejects by virtue of being essentially 'communitarian').
 

AnonymousOne

First Post
jim pinto said:
War and the Romantics became the enemy of humanism. It would eventually lead to Liberalism (not be confused with left-wing) in politics, evolution in science, Marxism, existentialism in literature, and progressivism in art (cubism, etc.)

Erm ... Liberalism (And by that I mean Classical Liberalism, the likes of Rousseau, Locke, and the American founding fathers.) comes as a direct result of Rationalism and not Modernism. The idea of a rational being is one that is most purported by the rationalists.

These ideals of course lead to the likes of the Austrian economists and various other individualist philosophies.
 

Teflon Billy

Explorer
I hear Nobilis constantly referred to as postmodern.

After that, my understanding of Postmodernism and Nobilis drops off sharply.

So there you go: An utterly unhelpful post.

Consider it a Bump...and you're welcome:)
 

Samnell

Explorer
Korgoth said:
I tend to think of "Modernism" as arising with guys like Descartes, who posited an individual absolutely abstracted from the rest of reality as the starting point for knowledge...

That's Platonism.
 

Wayside

Explorer
If you're having trouble telling modernism from postmodernism, it's because there are few clear distinctions between them. They're continuous with one another, and neither is entirely "new" (postmodernism, for example, begins as a reinvigoration of pre-Socratic philosophy, which is some 2600 years old). You'll find all kinds of so-called postmodernist elements in, say, James Joyce, and in fact, if you ever actually read Lyotard's The Postmodern Condition: A Report on Knowledge (which is the origin of the idea of postmodernism as it's bandied about today, though he borrowed the term from an architectural movement) you'll find Joyce singled out as postmodernism's poster boy--Joyce, who is supposedly a modernist.

Technically, Lyotard defines postmodernism as a kind of antifoundationalism, which as far as games are concerned basically means that any game that relies passively on received ideas about what a game is, what game design is etc. is probably going to turn out to be a modernist game, while any game that rethinks the concept of games and gaming from the ground up is probably going to be a postmodernist game. You could also sort games that try to be universal or generic (GURPS, d20 generally) into the modernist pile, while more targeted games like Dread would go the other way.

It's much easier to look at games in terms of (post)structuralism though.
 

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