Modernist and Postmodernist RPGs?

[Cheiromancer]

Dude, René Descartes died in 1650. I have a hard time considering the thoughts of a guy who died more than a century before the American Revolution as "modern".

I'm no historian of philosophy, but I know that Descartes is considered the first figure of modern Philosophy.

Except by the Neo-Thomists, of course. But they like to emphasize the continuity between the patristic, medieval and present day thinkers.

 

[eyebeams]

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Thinking more about potentially postmodern games, I'm not coming up with much mechanics-wise. In terms of setting, Mage:tA definitely makes the list, and the Demons chapter of Exalted's Games of Divinity fits too. TB is probably right about how Nobilis is played, but as far as fluff goes I don't think it's terribly postmodern. I'd be interested to hear what eyebeams thinks, since he tends to look at lots of games with this sort of thing in mind, but I can't remember seeing a post from him here in quite a while.

I've been working!

Anyway:

Postmodernism is really a *condition,* like leprosy or the information age. It doesn't really matter what you *think* of it. It just exists. Because we construct most modern texts with self-aware referentiality reflexively (as common custom) the product is postmodern. D&D is postmodern because it references signs from the metatexts of fantasy fiction and wargaming.

Now when you're talking about a game as an intentional postmodern project . . . *whew*. That's a big deal. Mage: The Ascension was *kind of* about this, but I think it was also about searching for a sense of Logos in a postmodern, hyperreal environment. Awakening turns this around and asks you how you can free yourself from an oppressive Logos.

I think Baudrillard's hyperreality is an important concept here. RPGs encourage immersion in a world of signifiers detached from what they signify. B. thought this was a uniquely American invention and I think that certainly, American culture's focus on building a comprehensive structure of these kinds of things is an amazing trait. The European tradition is situated more on understanding historicity in relationships, even when it does weird things with them. I think it's telling that Germany's a hotbed of gaming because, well, they *had* to adopt hyperreality and cut away part of their own historical tradition.

 

[Wayside]

I would say that many indie narrative games are absolutely modernist because they encourages fixed narrative elements mapped according to pidgin high school/19th century literary theory. The classic RPG form *is* postmodern by nature already because it undermines or destroys many modernist assumptions about narrative (a single thread determined by a relationship with a theme/thesis instead of a relationship with the reader/audience/player).

That's an interesting gloss on indie narrative games. Are we talking, say, Sorceror, or maybe something even further down that path? I can already see how this fits into some of the design ideas you've talked about on LJ/Shooting Dice in the past.

Now when you're talking about a game as an intentional postmodern project . . . *whew*. That's a big deal. Mage: The Ascension was *kind of* about this, but I think it was also about searching for a sense of Logos in a postmodern, hyperreal environment. Awakening turns this around and asks you how you can free yourself from an oppressive Logos.

This is the thing that always bugged me about Ascension. The whole project, or at least what I always wanted to be the whole project, was kind of deflated by the paradigms, how the setting was structured, what the goals and rewards were assumed to be. At the same time, the origin story for Awakening didn't really hold my attention, so I haven't looked at the game much beyond that. If what you say is true though, I'll have to go back and do that.

I think Baudrillard's hyperreality is an important concept here. RPGs encourage immersion in a world of signifiers detached from what they signify. B. thought this was a uniquely American invention and I think that certainly, American culture's focus on building a comprehensive structure of these kinds of things is an amazing trait. The European tradition is situated more on understanding historicity in relationships, even when it does weird things with them. I think it's telling that Germany's a hotbed of gaming because, well, they *had* to adopt hyperreality and cut away part of their own historical tradition.

This could be the reason I've spent the last decade reading RPGs with little real interest in actually playing them (not in the way you like to point out, but out of a general interest in design). I wonder whether a game that aimed at the opposite of hyperreality--which I certainly wouldn't call reality, but maybe social reality, or maybe (like the game of Mage I always wanted) something more destruktured--could pull that off? (And still be, you know, fun, and not a bunch of pretentious wankery.)

 

[eyebeams]

That's an interesting gloss on indie narrative games. Are we talking, say, Sorceror, or maybe something even further down that path? I can already see how this fits into some of the design ideas you've talked about on LJ/Shooting Dice in the past.

My Life With Master,Bachannal, Committee for the Exploration of Mysteries and other games where the narrative structure is very much set. Paladin, DitV, Sorcerer and Vampire to a lesser extent, with the commitment to a set moral truth.

This is the thing that always bugged me about Ascension. The whole project, or at least what I always wanted to be the whole project, was kind of deflated by the paradigms, how the setting was structured, what the goals and rewards were assumed to be. At the same time, the origin story for Awakening didn't really hold my attention, so I haven't looked at the game much beyond that. If what you say is true though, I'll have to go back and do that.

Well, Mage's Consensus isn't really postmodern. Its just a particular thesis. I think it worked okay, but it wasn't really sustainable since people treated it like hardwired metaphysical system. If we had gotten another kick at the can I was very much in favour of saying that reality was a *narrative*, not a set of laws. When you look at it like this it absolves the game of *many* of its setting issues.

This could be the reason I've spent the last decade reading RPGs with little real interest in actually playing them (not in the way you like to point out, but out of a general interest in design). I wonder whether a game that aimed at the opposite of hyperreality--which I certainly wouldn't call reality, but maybe social reality, or maybe (like the game of Mage I always wanted) something more destruktured--could pull that off? (And still be, you know, fun, and not a bunch of pretentious wankery.)

You could o in that direction but never really get there unless you did something really odd, like take a fictional personal and use it to deal with the real world. I had an idea for a game like this a ways back De Profundis has aspects of this but is a bit on the loose side.

 

[lin_fusan]

From my screenwriting class

In my screenwriting class, post-modern storytelling tends to be about a certain level of "inconsistency," meaning that the most-classical elements of storytelling (one protagonist, a narrative arc, one theme or perspective) is eliminated in one form or another.

An example would inconsistent time, ie. storytelling where time changes. This does not necessarily mean time travel, but in the most light form, flashbacks, to the most disorientating, images or people moving/acting backwards in time. This might includes looping stories where the protagonist finds himself/herself in the exact same situation, down to the minute detail, at the end of the story as in the beginning.

Another example would be an inconsistent protagonist, where he/she acts completely different from one scene or another. This could include stories where the character is seen differently from each of the other characters.

This does not include bad acting or writing, but where the purpose is to disorientate or confuse.

Some people consider Memento to be post-modern, because pseudo-nonlinear time in the story is important to how the character is perceived. Also, the movie imparts a change in perspective in the character while the audience watches the movie. (Whereas most protagonists in certain stories are supposed to change for the better or for the worst and thus the audience changes their perspective of the character, in Memento the structure of the story itself forces a change in the audiences' perception.)

That's my two copper.