Modifying Abilities

[Nahat Anoj]

I've got some ideas for making a more or less significant modification to Abilities in d20. For starters these would be my 6 Abilities:

Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Charisma
Wits
Willpower (abbrievated WP - I'm in the market for a better name)

Str, Dex, and Con are physical power, finesse, and resistance Abilities, respectively. Cha, Wits, and WP are mental power, finesse, and resistance Abilities, respectively. (this power/finesse/resistance distinction is similar to what is found in the Action! and New World of Darkness systems). Cha is pretty much unchanged, Wits would basically be Intelligence and the perceptive aspect of Wisdom, and WP would be the willpower aspect of Wisdom.

There would be four basic Saving Throws - Reflex (Dex), Fortitude (Con), Awareness (Wits), and Will (WP) (the main reason I want a new name for the Willpower Ability is that it's so similar to the Will Saving Throw). Awareness would be the Saving Throw to resist illusions and possibly other kinds of deception (this could remove the Sense Motive Skill, or maybe change it to a Feat). Will would focus primarily on resisting mental domination and corruption.

As an aside, I like C&C's usage of having Saving Throws for each Ability. So in addition to Awareness, I could make Might (Str) and Presence (Cha) saving throws. Might Saves could be made to avoid physical domination and Presence Saves to avoid mental domination (therefore Will Saves would only be made to avoid mental corruption).

Even if I go with just the 4 Saves option, shuffling around the mental Abilities changes things in subtle but pervasive ways. For example, while I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that smart people tend to be more perceptive, it becomes harder to make "dumb but wise" character concepts that the current Intelligence and Wisdom setup allows for. However, I think this kind of change could be a good refinement of d20 and make things easier to adjudicate on the fly. I'd like to hear what others think of this and if others have already approached something similar to what I just described.

Jon

 

[Aaron2]

It seems to me that all you did was rename Int and redefine Wisdom. I don't see where you've improved anything since you can just use the old names and avoid confusion. "Wisdom" is kind of a nebulous term anyway.

I like the six saving throws over the arbitrary three. I'd almost prefer to get rid of the save machanic entirely. Its hard to justify the difference between a Dex check and a Reflex save. To make matters worse, one roll might be significantly higher than the other. Anyway, it would be great to have more than three saves just to add variety to the spells. Make a list of which spells save versus which abilities. Also, rather than have six columns for the save bonuses for each class, give out a certain amount of Save Ranks that the player can assign to each save (no more than 1 per two levels). I'm thinking of doing this even with the normal three saves.

Finally, I have no problem with Int being used for perception checks. However, I always thought that Wisdom was used because it represented your ability to stay focused and concentrate. An absent minded (but otherwise intelligent) wizard would be focusing on the unusual and rare beetle crawling on the floor rather than checking for orcs in the shadows.


Aaron

 

[Nahat Anoj]

It seems to me that all you did was rename Int and redefine Wisdom. I don't see where you've improved anything since you can just use the old names and avoid confusion. "Wisdom" is kind of a nebulous term anyway.

Well, I'm redefining what Abilities are and how they relate to the system. In the process, I don't think the old terms Intelligence and Wisdom fit.

Under the scheme I propose, the Abilities really are:

Physical Power
Physical Finesse
Physical Resistance
Mental Power
Mental Finesse
Mental Resistance

I then renamed them to make them easier for d20 users to recognize and interpret. Thus, I could call the first three Abilities Brawn, Adroitness, and Stamina, but Str, Dex, and Con work fine and are easily recognizeable. So I agree with you in that the old terms, if appropriate, should remain in use.

This leaves us with the last three. Let's first talk about Mental Power. Mental Power is like Mental "Strength." It's a character's ability to influence other people's mental states in a way similar to how Str allows a character to influence other people's physical states (such as by hitting them). This sounds a lot like "force of personality" to me, so I think Cha is a good term.

Next is Mental Finesse. This should be something like Mental "Dexterity." Dex allows a character to avoid physical damage, move quickly and gracefully, and otherwise coordinate his physical faculties. Similarly, Mental Finesse would involving "dodging" mental damage, thinking quickly and creatively, and coordinating his mental resources. I could call this Int, but Int as it currently is in d20 means primarily brainpower, learning and reason. In other words, I think Intelligence has too much baggage. Wisdom would work a little better, but I think Wits is a *perfect* better fit for Mental Dexterity.

Finally it's Mental Resistance, which should be like Mental "Constitution." Constitution implies physical toughness, endurance, and overall health. Mental Resistance should therefore be about mental toughness, resolve, and mental health. This in no way describes Int, and it describes only the willpower part of Wisdom (which has intuition and awareness components to it). Again, I think Wisdom has too much "baggage" for Mental Resistance, so I'll use Willpower until I can find a better word.

I like the six saving throws over the arbitrary three. I'd almost prefer to get rid of the save machanic entirely. Its hard to justify the difference between a Dex check and a Reflex save.

From a game mechanics perspective, I think Saving Throws are basically Skills that are 1) used only in reaction to something, 2) "always on," 3) and automatically go up each level (as opposed to having discretionary points spent on them like Skills do). However, many Skills such as Spot, Sense Motive, and Listen, have reactive components to them. To make things more intuitive, I would prefer that the reactive aspect of these Skills be handled by a Save (such as an Awareness save).

Your ideas for Saves are pretty neat, by the way.

Finally, I have no problem with Int being used for perception checks. However, I always thought that Wisdom was used because it represented your ability to stay focused and concentrate. An absent minded (but otherwise intelligent) wizard would be focusing on the unusual and rare beetle crawling on the floor rather than checking for orcs in the shadows.

Again, that was one of my concerns, as it's a popular character concept in d20 (I like it, too). However, isn't it possible for a person to have excellent perception but who doesn't have a lot of focus? (this is a rhetorical question, really, because I could just make a Feat that let's a character use his Int bonus instead of Wis bonus for perception - ultimately it boils down to a matter of taste).

I should say that I like d20 perfectly fine as is. In fact, I'm gearing up to run a Blue Rose game and I'm sure I'll have no problem with the Abilities. I'm just trying to streamline things in a manner I find appealing and may be more intuitive, therefore helping new players learn the game or allowing GMs to adjudicate things more quickly.

Jon

 

[Aaron2]

Well, I'm redefining what Abilities are and how they relate to the system. In the process, I don't think the old terms Intelligence and Wisdom fit.

I understand what you are doing. I just don't think its worth the time and effort to cut-and-paste every reference to Int and Wisdom rather than just say to your players, "IMC I treat Intelligence as Mental Finesse and Wisdom as Mental Resistance" and be done with it.

From a game mechanics perspective, I think Saving Throws are basically Skills that are 1) used only in reaction to something, 2) "always on," 3) and automatically go up each level (as opposed to having discretionary points spent on them like Skills do). However, many Skills such as Spot, Sense Motive, and Listen, have reactive components to them. To make things more intuitive, I would prefer that the reactive aspect of these Skills be handled by a Save (such as an Awareness save).

Why not just make six reaction skills (one for each ability) that are never class skills? Being cross class will keep them in the same range as saves are now and with six of them you don't have to worry (as much) about characters maxing them all out.


Aaron

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I understand what you are doing. I just don't think its worth the time and effort to cut-and-paste every reference to Int and Wisdom rather than just say to your players, "IMC I treat Intelligence as Mental Finesse and Wisdom as Mental Resistance" and be done with it.

Just personal preference, I suppose .

Why not just make six reaction skills (one for each ability) that are never class skills? Being cross class will keep them in the same range as saves are now and with six of them you don't have to worry (as much) about characters maxing them all out.

That's a good idea.

Jon

 

[beepeearr]

Quote:
Under the scheme I propose, the Abilities really are:

Physical Power
Physical Finesse
Physical Resistance
Mental Power
Mental Finesse
Mental Resistance

Funny, but isn't this what the system already reflects.

Strength is physical power
Dexterity is physical skill (finesse)
Constitution is physical resistance

Intelligence is mental skill (finesse), hence the reason it adds to your overall skill points.
Wisdom is very much mental resistance, think about the perception bit as the mind being able to filter through the barrage of stimuli we experience everyday to tell us what is important, kind of like how concentration is used to ignore physical damage. You might want to add a mental concentration skill though, that only works vs non physical distractions, I use this and call it Composure (name stolen from Wheel of time). This way you don't have to change so much and can highlight Wisdom as mental resistance.
Charisma is mental strength, as evidenced by the ability to influence others opinion of you.

Just a thought, as far as the Extra save, It's not a bad idea, but, I can't think of too many spells I would use it for. Reflex and fortitude I understand, because both are very different, I guess if you do give perception to Wits, illusions would make sense, but It would be hard to skillfully get around or use finesses against most mind effecting spells.