Monetary Treasure Parcels - Gold for your thought.

[Gorrstagg]

So, the other day, I woke up as I'm wont to do, and realized something. The monetary treasure parcel system on page 124 of the DMG, is built for a group/party of five.

Then they show you how to alter treasure rewards for more or less members in a party.

But the only thing they do is alter the number of magic items.

So, that got me to do some math, figured out that if you take the treasure listed for monies, excluding magic items, as its designed to always be one less magic item than party members. (To manage items they stated.. in the book.) But it then goes on to indicate that players will receive monies to buy or enchant items of their level or lower.

"The monetary rewards included in the treasure parcels should also allow characters to buy or enchant items of their level or lower."

But therein lies the problem. The tables don't scale up or down for monies, leaving them static as it were.

See I was starting to notice that my group that's gone from level 4-6 (almost 7th now) has been getting the treasures listed, but boy did they feel a bit light still.

And then I did some columns, long drawn out stuff, wealth accumulated as listed, and then how much was a team getting short changed as it were.

Well the more people in the group like any venture, with all getting an equal share, the less per person.

Yet that group will be short wealth. If the baseline is for a group of 5, with each getting an equal share. Then without it balancing out, for larger groups they are penalized, for essentially having more players, i.e. more friends. To game with.

Take for example, level 1. Monies 720gp. Party of 5 = 144 each.
Take for example, level 1. Monies 720gp. Party of 6 = 120 each.
Take for example, level 1. Monies 720gp. Party of 7 = 102.85 each.
Take for example, level 1. Monies 720gp. Party of 8 = 90 each.

Doesn't seem like a lot, try level 5, then level 10, 15, 20, etcetera.

Take for example, level 5. Monies 2000gp. Party of 5 = 400 each.
Take for example, level 5. Monies 2000gp. Party of 6 = 333 each.
Take for example, level 5. Monies 2000gp. Party of 7 = 285.71 each.
Take for example, level 5. Monies 2000gp. Party of 8 = 250 each.

Take for example, level 10. Monies 10000gp. Party of 5 = 2000 each.
Take for example, level 10. Monies 10000gp. Party of 6 = 1666.66 each.
Take for example, level 10. Monies 10000gp. Party of 7 = 1428.57each.
Take for example, level 10. Monies 10000gp. Party of 8 = 1250 each.

Take for example, level 15. Monies 50000gp. Party of 5 = 10000 each.
Take for example, level 15. Monies 50000gp. Party of 6 = 8333.33 each.
Take for example, level 15. Monies 50000gp. Party of 7 = 7142.85 each.
Take for example, level 15. Monies 50000gp. Party of 8 = 6250 each.

Take for example, level 20. Monies 250000gp. Party of 5 = 50000 each.
Take for example, level 20. Monies 250000gp. Party of 6 = 41666.66 each.
Take for example, level 20. Monies 250000gp. Party of 7 = 35714.28 each.
Take for example, level 20. Monies 250000gp. Party of 8 = 31250 each.


Of course, the reality is, all you need to do to fix it as a DM, is to determine the wealth for that level, divide it by 5, that's an equal share, add that much wealth back into the parcels and voila. Problem solved, and your group isn't getting seriously behind the curve.

(Remember something as simple as 50gp for a potion of healing, could mean the difference between living and dying, and a 500 gp raise dead. i.e. ten times the value.)

It works out well for me on this, in that knowing there was an error, I'll be able to quickly add back in some wealth for the players in my group. (They kept going on and on about how much money kept going to the potions of healing, even with 2 clerics in the group with heavy healing to boot.)

Hope this helps the other DM's out there.

 

[Mengu]

I have a party of 6. I follow the item guidelines fairly closely, but I don't follow the coin guidelines. I don't like the purchasing of magic items in a market place so much. I basically turn the coin into ritual components, scrolls, or other miscellaneous items the party may find useful.

This is mainly because I don't want hording treasure to be a goal for the PC's in my campaign. I want them to focus on their missions, so I handle any of their magic item needs in the background. I know what they want/need (usually better than they do), so I don't suspect they'll complain (much) about being shorted on magic.

 

[HarbingerX]

I'll have to wait until my players have done more leveling to see for sure, but I haven't encountered any problems with monies handed out with 6 PCs vs. 5 PCs. The extra Magic Item helps keep everyone equal and as the previous poster mentioned, I keep an eye out on healing potions, ritual components and scrolls held by the party and keep them topped up - no one seems to have any complaints about having too few gp, cause they don't really have anything they absolutely need to buy in order to keep adventuring. Mundane equipment of course is cheap enough they don't care how much it costs.

 

[Truename]

It seemed unbalanced to me, too, until I realized that the extra magic item actually balances it out perfectly. The hidden secret here is that the only things of real value are magic items. (After the first few levels, everything else is too cheap to matter.)

So the treasure tables work out like this (by memory, I don't have my DMG handy):

- One item of level +4
- One item of level +3
- One item of level +2
- One item of level +1
- Two items of level +0 (in gold)

Since you do have some miscellaneous expenses (potions & consumables, bribes, nights at the inn, etc.), this works out to exactly one item for each character, plus a bit of misc gold for spending money.

So to balance it, just add another magic item. Brilliant. The problem isn't the treasure tables, it's that your players are stiffing the guy who didn't get a magic item. ;-)

 

[CapnZapp]

It seemed unbalanced to me, too, until I realized that the extra magic item actually balances it out perfectly. The hidden secret here is that the only things of real value are magic items. (After the first few levels, everything else is too cheap to matter.)

So the treasure tables work out like this (by memory, I don't have my DMG handy):

- One item of level +4
- One item of level +3
- One item of level +2
- One item of level +1
- Two items of level +0 (in gold)

Since you do have some miscellaneous expenses (potions & consumables, bribes, nights at the inn, etc.), this works out to exactly one item for each character, plus a bit of misc gold for spending money.

So to balance it, just add another magic item. Brilliant. The problem isn't the treasure tables, it's that your players are stiffing the guy who didn't get a magic item. ;-)

Just for clarity, there's no change in gold, and there's no magic items of level + 0 handed out.

The normal (five-player) parcel distribution is indeed as you say:
P1 One magic item of level+4
P2 One magic item of level+3
P3 One magic item of level+2
P4 One magic item of level+1
P5-P10 Cash (or equivalent) equal to the market cost of two magic items of level+0

For each player above five, add one parcel containing one magic item. For six, seven and eight players; add one of level+2, then also one of level+1, and finally also one of level+3.

For each player below five, you instead remove existing magic item parcels: for four, three and two players; remove parcels P3, parcels P2 & P4, or parcels P1, P2 & P4, respectively.

The bit about "stiffing" players I'm not sure I get. The system isn't saying you should hand over all gold to the sole player that isn't getting an item. Because how can the characters know where one set of parcels begin and ends? From the character's POV, there's a never-ending stream of incoming treasure, and this is to be divided fairly over time. One player might not get any item one level, but he might get the L+4 item next time!

Either the gold gets divvied up equally among all PCs, or among all PCs who didn't get anything else.

Meta-thinking such as "I'm the one who's not getting an item this level" is certainly something I would discourage around my table.

Saving all the gold until you get out of the dungeon, and then giving it all to the character who didn't get any items, is hardly a common approach, me thinks.

I would even recommend juggling parcels around a bit, sometimes handing out two L+3 items, sometimes replacing the L+2 with two L+1 and so on. The players shouldn't be able to easily calculate "okay, so now we've found the L+1, the L+2, and the L+3. There's still the L+4 to be found, so we're not leaving the dungeon until we do!".

 

[eamon]

Larger parties get slightly less wealth per character. However, given the heavy scaling of wealth and the high loss caused by selling things, this has very little impact.

It's far more important that the DM select items that the characters really need, since selling items is so inefficient - that really makes a dent.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's far more important that the DM select items that the characters really need, since selling items is so inefficient - that really makes a dent.

I really want to avoid any sense the DM is "obliged" to give the characters what they need, so I'd rephrase this:

If the DM selects items that the characters can't immediately use, he can be more generous when handing out treasure.

Remember, the suggestion in the DMG to hand out items the characters can actually use is just that: a guideline. Not a requirement.

This means that noone can say the DMG treasure tables are calibrated on the assumption the PCs always get what they want and need.

If nothing else, the DMG doesn't say anything specific on the subject of upgrades. Even if you never hand out items that the characters can't use, you can still hand out items that ultimately get sold. In a group with only one Rogue, the second magical dagger is likely to replace the first one, with the first one sold or disenchanted.

I would go so far as to say:
If the DM always gives the PCs exactly what's on their wish lists, he can well be a little stingy.

Just to offer a counter-point!

 

[PeelSeel2]

I want to stick with the treasure as written in the DMG, but with a mixed level party that also varies from session to session by the number of players, coupled with the fact that I do not 'plan' an entire levels worth of encounters (I use random encounters, and set place encounters) makes using it hard. One session I might have 10 players, the next 6. Variance in their levels are typically -1 to +1 of each other.

So what I did was I converted all magic items to their retail value and threw that in with the gold per level. I then divided the amount of experience a party of 5 would earn that level into the monetary value to come up with a gold per XP earned value for each level.

This makes it easier then. I can hand out gold based on the experience I hand out. If an encounter really should not have a monetary value, it goes into a 'kitty' that I can hand out at an appropriate encounter. If I want a couple of magic items, I take their gold value off the total. Keeps everything balanced.

 

[Gorrstagg]

Just a note guys, I went ahead and did the math for every single magic item found based upon the DMG settings, based on a 5 man party, 6, 7 & 8 man parties as well.

Just to see what the effect of the magic item was on the entire process, and the addition of the bonus magic items to compensate for the larger parties but no addtional wealth.

And well, let's put it this way, that 8 man party. By the time the player is 30th level, in an 8 man party, he's missing out on 1/2 million gold from levels 1-30. (Writers note, I'm not on my laptop with the spreadsheet for this, and my math may be off but it was similar to that number. And when I get a chance to sit at my laptop I'll update this with the accurate numbers.)

The addition of the magic items has little to no effect for skewing the balance to compensate for the actual monies.

Cause you need to remember, the wealth provided is supposed to provide essentially enough wealth to buy a magic item as well as all but one of the party members receives an actual good magic item. The wealth is there so they can actually buy other stuff, from potions, to other enchantments, and other magic items.

Here's the example for my group where the players went from 4th level to 6th level of adventures.

Level 4 - 1,680gp /5=336 /6=280
Level 5 - 2,000gp /5=400 /6=333.33
Level 6 - 3,600gp /5=720 /6=600

Difference for a 6 member group is they are missing out on 1,456gp.

What could that buy though? Well if you consider that all of them share the wealth evenly, well they are missing out on a share of 1,456gp. What can that buy?

A level 5 magic item and a level 1 magic item, and a potion of healing.
A level 4 magic item and a level 2 magic item, and a potion of healing.
Hmm, or 4 level 1 magic items.


And that's just from them starting at 4th level and playing all the way up through sixth level and almost 7th. Where if I didn't realize all of this, and correct it for them, they would be out.. another 1,040gp. (The equivalent of a 5th level item.)

And if they had gone from 1st level up to say 7th level as a 6 member party.. they would be missing.. 3,119gp. Which is the equivalent of a 7th level magic item and a 1st level and a potion.

Level 1 - 720gp /5=144 /6=120
Level 2 - 1,040gp /5=208 /6=173.33
Level 3 - 1,355gp /5=271 /6=225.83
Level 4 - 1,680gp /5=336 /6=280
Level 5 - 2,000gp /5=400 /6=333.33
Level 6 - 3,600gp /5=720 /6=600
Level 7 - 5,200gp /5=1,040 / 6=866.66
Total 15,595 /5=3,119gp /6=2599.16

So a properly balanced set up would be each member receives by 7th level 3,119gp. As it is going with the current set up, they would reach 2,599.16 a loss of 519.84, each.

It may not seem like much, but it's a burden being shared across a group. And the difference is if they saved from 1st to 7th they would be .84gp short of being able to outright buy a 7th level magic item.

But the point is they are missing out on wealth that can help fill in the magic gaps they experience for items over levels. That THEY want to fill, not just some wish list.

I quote again.

Make sure that over the course of several levels of adventuring, you award items evenly to all the characters, so that over the course of, say, five levels, every character has acquired four useful and exciting items. The monetary rewards included in the treasure parcels should also allow characters to buy or enchant items of their level or lower.

Their level or lower. Remember when I'm saying buying magic items, that's also interchangeable with Enchant magic Ritual.

Remember this key part, as they go up in levels, with so many cool magic items to give out/acquire, they aren't going to be getting everything they want from just the found magic items. Those may fill in spots, but they would be missing out on other things they see as important but may not be VERY important. That and as they get higher level, they are replacing some older items, and also acquiring cool items they've been interested in but ended up not getting due to the fact that every level they go up, so does the item levels in power.

That and even though in my case I'm tailoring the magic items for them sans a wishlist. (I abhor the idea outside of questing.) I'm still making sure that each player is getting a cool magic item (except one per level) and tailoring it for them, so that it's interesting, and pretty cool, but may not always be exactly what they want. (Further enhancing the need for them to buy stuff of their level or lower. To fill in perceived gaps.)

 

[CapnZapp]

Not sure about your findings here.

A five man party recieves (or is supposed to recieve, at least) 14000 gp worth of treasure (4200+3400+2600+1800+1000*2) or 2800 gp per character.

A six man party would/should recieve an additional level 7 item (worth 2600 gp). The loot per character goes down, but only from 2800 gp to 2767 gp.

An eight man party gets as their additional parcels 3400, 2600, and 1800 gp. Sure, that's still only 2600 gp a pop, making the group's average 2725 gp.

All numbers for level 5.

Sure, they're lagging behind, but not by that much. Besides, the designer did a pretty good job of approximating the average loot by just having item prices to play with!

To me, you'd lose more by disenchanting or selling even a single item, than you'd lose by brining in another player or three...!