Mongose: Quintessential Fighter

[drnuncheon]

I almost called this thread Mongoose: Complete Fighter's Handbook before I remembered that wasn't the name. Heh.

Anyway, I was kind of curious about the design decision of making the Fighting Styles an additional mechanic, rather than keeping them in the skills-and-feats boxes that 3e gives us.

I'll be honest, I'm a bit uncomfortable with giving those kind of abilities away without a cost. I realize there's the monetary cost, but that's pretty minor for a character of levels that can get most of them. There's the wisdom requirement, but again that seems pretty minor - although it does mean that the fighter needs to allocate a decent stat to his Wis which he would not otherwise do.

A lot of the abilities look as if they're roughly balanced with feats - was that intentional? As it stands they're somewhere in between feats and prestige classes, but they don't require the use of an expendable resource the way both feats and PCs do.

I'm pondering turning them into feats (with the same or at least similar requirements) only available to people trained by the school. Anyone else tried this?

J

 

[Tuerny]

I got the QF yesterday and have been considering the same thing.

As I see it there are two different options for this.

1) Make five level prestige classes based on each of the fighting styles.

2) Requiring an xp expenditure in order to acquire the abilities.

As it stands I do not think they are balanced as they are basically a big benefit for a small expenditure.

Jesse Dean

 

[drnuncheon]

I got the QF yesterday and have been considering the same thing.

As I see it there are two different options for this.

I actually considered both of these.

1) Make five level prestige classes based on each of the fighting styles.

The problem I ran into here is that for many of the fighting styles, you can't get them consecutively - many of the benefits are gained several levels apart and have different prerequisites. I suspect that this is why they weren't done as prestige classes in the first place.

2) Requiring an xp expenditure in order to acquire the abilities.

This one is something that I thought about - how would you approach it? 2% of the cost of learning, like item creation? I haven't worked out the numbers on this to see how it comes out but it would make me feel a lot better about allowing it.

J

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

Hi guys,

We always knew the Fighting Styles chapter was going to be controversial in some quarters, so please allow me to give our take on this.

First off, good spotting on the Wisdom. One of the intentions of the Quintessential series is to get people thinking about more well-rounded characters. As it stands, how Fighters have you seen with low scores in Charisma and Wisdom, because the high stats go to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution? With the Quintessential Fighter, we have made sure that Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma are also important, forcing players to think a little more carefully about how they place their starting stats. This is a good thing. We also wanted to provide options to fighters who were already in existence, rather than forcing players to start from, scratch and generate new characters in order to take advantage of these rules.

Second, in terms of game balance - as Games Masters, you all have a _great_ deal of latitude as to what you allow in to your game and, more importantly, the effect you allow it to have. The Fighting Styles are not campaign breakers. They are not that powerful, particularly when you start looking at the entry requirements and the fact that a fighter is going to need a massive Wisdom score to get to the high levels. In the normal course of play, the fighting styles will allow the fighter to do something a little bit cool every now and again, and add an extra dimension to his character, the true prupose of this chapter.

Consider, for a moment, what a higher level Cleric or Wizard might be capable of at the same time a fighter is beginning to pick up these styles - due to the co-operative nature of role-playing games and the interaction between player and Games Master, there is an incredible amount of latitude available in rules such as this and it all boils down to individual discretion and personal likes. These rules don't super charge a fighter by any means, as there is always another ogre just around the corner to give him a kicking.

And, of course, at the end of the day, everything within The Quintessential Fighter is optional. If you don't wish to allow your players to use Fighting Styles, that is cool with us - but I think some of your NPCs may benefit from them

Oh, and there is an Option 3: Try them. You have nothing to lose and they may just add another dimension to an existing fighter character. . .

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

First off, good spotting on the Wisdom. One of the intentions of the Quintessential series is to get people thinking about more well-rounded characters. .. We have made sure that Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma are also important, forcing players to think a little more carefully about how they place their starting stats. This is a good thing.

Why? I think you'd need to defend that assertion.

Is it an equally "good thing" to force Wizards to have high Strength? Frankly I think it's a "good thing" that folks with high strength can pick up a sword and contribute, and it's an equally good thing that folks with more brains than brawn can master magic. To take your suggestion to its conclusion, it's a "good thing" for every character to have all 13's and 14's.

I prefer games where there are mighty (and stupid) warriors and brilliant (and fragile) wizards.

I guess when I think Quintessential, I think "iconic," not "well-rounded."

Wisdom is already important to a fighter (as their miserable Will saves are their big achilles heel) but more importantly, I don't understand what wisdom has to do with physical training. It seems a little forced to me, a balancing mechanic without logic. (Even intelligence would make more sense than wisdom-- as witnessed by the finesse fighter Feats in the PHB that require Int 13+.)

Anyhow-- I dare say Mike Tyson is the Quintessential Boxer but I wouldn't put bets on his wisdom.

We also wanted to provide options to fighters who were already in existence, rather than forcing players to start from, scratch and generate new characters in order to take advantage of these rules.

You just said most fighters in existence don't bother with wisdom-- so how will they take advantage of the rules? (Clearly, I need to buy the book... and I will... I'm just askin'...)

Second, in terms of game balance - as Games Masters, you all have a _great_ deal of latitude as to what you allow in to your game and, more importantly, the effect you allow it to have... And, of course, at the end of the day, everything within The Quintessential Fighter is optional.

I think the first duty of the game designer is to provide rules that can be used by most people with a minimum of fuss. (There is nothing more annoying as a player than having to beg your DM to allow a new rules supplement into the game.)

One of the great features about d20 is its customizabilty and scalability. Everyone would like to feel that each new piece of OGC fits right in. The more designers who fall back on "It's optional...," the weaker the entirety of Open Content becomes.

The Fighting Styles are not campaign breakers. They are not that powerful, particularly when you start looking at the entry requirements and the fact that a fighter is going to need a massive Wisdom score to get to the high levels.

At high levels, Clerics are already better fighters than most Fighters, is this going to make the situation worse?

Wulf

 

[drnuncheon]

Hi guys,
Second, in terms of game balance - as Games Masters, you all have a _great_ deal of latitude as to what you allow in to your game and, more importantly, the effect you allow it to have. The Fighting Styles are not campaign breakers. They are not that powerful, particularly when you start looking at the entry requirements and the fact that a fighter is going to need a massive Wisdom score to get to the high levels. In the normal course of play, the fighting styles will allow the fighter to do something a little bit cool every now and again, and add an extra dimension to his character, the true prupose of this chapter.

Oh, absolutely - in fact, they looked so much like feats that I thought it was kind of strange that they weren't written up as feats. (In fact, that's the solution I'm leaning towards- make them exclusive feats only learnable by students of the style in question).

And, of course, at the end of the day, everything within The Quintessential Fighter is optional. If you don't wish to allow your players to use Fighting Styles, that is cool with us - but I think some of your NPCs may benefit from them

Hey, don't think I don't like 'em - I had something very similar in my campaign notes, detailing different styles and schools of combat in terms of existing feats and new feats exclusive to those styles. It was kind of neat to see something that similar in a published product.

My big concern is that fighters who do use the styles will have it all over fighters who do not, because they'll basically get the benefit of several extra feats for free (or close to it). I haven't crunched numbers but I am certain that there are several schools with significant overlap in the requirements, which would simply multiply the effects...

J

 

[drnuncheon]

Anyhow-- I dare say Mike Tyson is the Quintessential Boxer but I wouldn't put bets on his wisdom.

I think Iron Mike would better be covered by The Quintessential Barbarian...

J

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

Hi guys,

First off, no one if forcing Fighters to do anything. It is simply a little rule to make generating characters no longer a no-brainer (Rogue, got to have a high Dex, Fighter, Strength). It is just about variety, nothing more - we haven't changed the character generation rules for fighters, we are just giving players a little more to think about.

Second, we'll never hide behind the optional tag - but, surely, every d20 supplement is optional? And I am well aware that both GM's and players will come in, tear our rules apart and take the bits and pieces they like. That is just part of role-playing. After all, these are your games, not ours.

The use of Wisdom as the guiding factor for fighting styles was to represent a martial discipline, a honing of the mind that stretched beyond simple intelligence and memorising of fighting moves. However, you would be welcome to substitute that for Strength or Intelligence, if it better fits your campaign.

 

[Nightfall]

Just curious about this Quintessential thing...

I know you have rogue lined up, but what the deal with Clerics and possible more about Wizards? Will Sorcerers have one too? How about Druids, Rangers and Barbarians?

Oh and one more thing, I love your Encyclopaedia Arcane line. Wild Sorcery was pretty darn cool. Any hints about what Constructs will feature? How about the Divine line then?

 

[Drakmar]

My review on TQF...

Well..I just purchased TQF today and I must say that on my first read I quite like it. I will break down my view on each of the sections. I am looking at this from both a DM and Player point of view.

Character Concepts:

I quite liked this section, most of the concepts given are of the "Archtypical" warrior concepts which is quite good I feel. I thought that the way that the benefits of taking one of these concepts were well thought out, however in only one or two case did they outweigh the penalties. (this can be easily fixed by the DM.

The Prestige Fighter:

Again, I quite liked this section, as again the Prestige Concepts were based on the various more conventional types of warriors that you would expect, rather that having a bunch of silly campaign specific classes. Also the fact that some of them are designed for low level characters (ie 5-9th) to aspire to, and others are designed for high (like the Master Bowman - that pick looks just like Legolas btw) level characters (ie 10-16th). I thought that none of them were overpowered in any way. And I thought the Legend was a particularily interesting class...

Tricks of the Trade:

I found this section possibly at a quick glance the least interesting section, however, since rereading it I have had a bit of time to think. What it does in the first part on Weapon/Armour Crafting is give a positive reason for the fighter to actually become a smith of some sort. I can especially see archers taking this line.

The part on Called Shots, was to me very well thought out. I don't see this as being overpowered, and yet you still get a result from hitting someone on the head/eye/arm etc. And the way it is restricted is to me balanced.

Then the part on Duels is to me basically fluff for most games UNLESS your game is HEROIC in its nature. Then this section is of great use. If you like to just carve up your foes then move on.

The part on Jousting is like the Duels section except it is of use oddly enough only in a game where you have....Jousting. But it seemed at a glance quite good...extra table there...starting to look a bit like RoleMaster...he he.

And the last bit on Shield Walls...YAY!!! sorry.. I have always wanted a balanced way of doing it and this seems to be it. Like the Duel/Jousting parts it is only of use in a campaign where you get them..maybe a Roman-like setting.

Fighter Feats:

As I haven't tested the feats I don't know what the impact of them will be. However on reading them I think that they are just a logical extension of the PHB list for the fighter to take (unlike SaF) I think that they allow you to take a more varied path if you a fighter, allowing some interesting combinations that actually make sense. O...and they have a feat for using two hand crossbows...

Tools of the Trade:

The part on weapons was another bunch of weapons.. most seem to come from acutal history, all of them might. None of the weapons are stoopid..or overpowered as far as I am concerned. And about time someone included rules for the Atlatl in a book.. or should I say ones that accurately portray just how useful they are.

The part on new Armours was a bit...um.. I dunno, odd.. I not sure why but the new armours (about 6 of them) could/would exist. However, I like the fact the Silk Shirts were relistically potrayed....And for that Dragonscale shield...that was one big Dragon.

The next bit on Equipment was really good. I quite like the extra stuff for archers...stuff that actually exists. And the other gear makes sense to be included with rules for them.

The part on Black powder weapons does not hold back. It shows just how POWERFUL black powder guns were in reality. Good. I would much rather have that than some stupid powered down rules just for the heck of it. That is to say the power has been balanced. Black powder weapons are not "Safe". I think that the rules needed to be included just so there are some good rules on it.

Fighting Styles:

This sections is possibly the most controvesial of the rules. I liked it. I thought the way that the significant requirements and the in game requirements balanced out the powers that some of the styles give. I also like the way they weren't either Feats or Prestige classes. The reason is that you could have two almost identical fighters with an almost identical set of feats and prestige classes yet because of what Style they use the two characters feel completely different. Plus none of the styles were World Specific (I really really really hate that...can anybody say SpiderthingyRogueofLLoth grumble grumble waste of paper) Also all of the styles can be easily modified.. ie Bloodsteel changes to race required Elves and weapon - Doublesword.. and you have a Elven Bloodsteel Style. And finally a style that makes the Quarterstaff as useful as it is in real life.

Tournaments:

This section is cool fluff.. Because it is something that fighters do.. (you know fight in competitions) when they aren't out a slaughtering. Gives a wee bit of stuff on them. and duels and archery comps with a cool little table for where you hit on the target. It is a useful section that only takes up 4 pages.. not wasted pages in my mind.

Mercenaries:

I think that it is good that this section is in the book. It really gives a way for characters to hire large numbers of mercs. Good for high level Fighter/Generals or anybody who wants to go a warring.

The Open Mass Combat System:

Um...Haven't really read it/tested it.. Skimmed it though...seems to be useful. For mass combat.. I guessing that that is the reason for the name.

Designer Notes...yup I read them..they were there. They made sense.

Fighter Character Sheet; Um.. I find that Character Sheets are a very personal thing. These seemed clean and well laid out.. just not the way I like it.

Rules Summary; a quick overview of all the new rules. quite useful.

Now...for the thing that you might not have expected..AN INDEX!!!!...sorry pet hate of mine...it seems that many RPG books seem to be lacking in that department. Have one is a GOOD thing. Do you hear? A GOOD THING..

Overall, I must say that this really is the FIRST true class book for D&D. heck for any D20 game that has fighters in it. However it is slanted heavily towards D&D rather than say...WoT. Personally I found more use in the first 12 pages than in ALL of the Sword and fist book. 96 pages were of stuff that is useful to me NOW. the last 32 pages would be useful for someone with a Mass Combat situation to deal with (not in my game as of yet)

Lets just say that based on the strength of this book I will definately be buying the Quintessential Rogue book.. (specially since i am playing a rogue at the moment)

I would like to hear other peoples thoughts on it too.

Drakmar.