D&D 3E/3.5 Monk 3.5

[werk]

Dex-Monk: Roll-to-hit, Hit!, 8 damage!
Str-Monk: Roll-to-hit, Hit!, 12 damage!

My point is they are both good hits, but I don't think the extra 4 points of damage are going to be so awe-inspiring that the harrier monk suddenly becomes a 'true threat'.

Add in damage reduction 10 and it's the difference between doing damage and being completely useless.

You defeat monsters by reducing their hitpoints (usually) not by avoiding danger.

I just made a monk last night, care to guess which stat my 18 went to?

I'm wondering why githzerai is then so good monk race as it gives +dex.

Hold over from previous editions...much like dex monks

 

[Nail]

Level 1, I would use as Rogue 1....

This is a good idea, and bears examining.

Is multiclassing a good idea? (Done at 1st level, to avoid the Mnk multiclassing restriction) For example, should the OP consider a build like this: Rog 1/Mnk 3, or this: Ftr 1/Mnk 3, etc....?

For Rog 1, you get:

• More skill points (16 more, to be exact) to spend on skills that are also Mnk skills,
• +1 Ref save,
• +1d6 Sneak Attack, which helps increase damage, and synergizes well with the mobility aspect of the Mnk

For Rog 1, you lose:

• 2 hit points,
• +1 BAB,
• +1 Fort and +1 Will save (depending on level), and
• 1 level worth of special Mnk abilities,
• 1 level worth of Unarmed attack damage progression (minimal).

Is that a worthwhile trade? It's certainly not a "slam-dunk". For example, you may do more damage when flanking, but you'll hit less often...and if you do the numbers, you find that a +1 atk is worth about a +2.5 hp extra damage. So the extra +1d6 (average +3.5) isn't all that good. (But it's not bad either!) The extra damage is also situational, so that has to be factored in.

Moreover you are slightly weaker and less able to make Fort and Will saves. And you'll always be one level behind on those cool Mnk special abilities.

Etc.

 

[the Lorax]

This is a good idea, and bears examining.

Thank you.

For Rog 1, you get:

• More skill points (16 more, to be exact) to spend on skills that are also Mnk skills,
• +1 Ref save,
• +1d6 Sneak Attack, which helps increase damage, and synergizes well with the mobility aspect of the Mnk

You also get Trapfinding, access to non-monk skills, and an improved weapon selection, including a Reach Weapon.

For Rog 1, you lose:

• 2 hit points,
• +1 BAB,
• +1 Fort and +1 Will save (depending on level), and
• 1 level worth of special Mnk abilities,
• 1 level worth of Unarmed attack damage progression (minimal).

All more or less true.
the actual numbers would be on average across an infinate number of levels
-2/3 BAB
-1/2 Fort and Will
+1.5 Ref
-1 HP, (unless your game gives Max HP at level 1)

Is that a worthwhile trade? It's certainly not a "slam-dunk". For example, you may do more damage when flanking, but you'll hit less often...and if you do the numbers, you find that a +1 atk is worth about a +2.5 hp extra damage. So the extra +1d6 (average +3.5) isn't all that good. (But it's not bad either!) The extra damage is also situational, so that has to be factored in.

Well, with the build I was suggesting (which is absolutely not the only way to make a monk, just one idea) Access to the improved weaponry of a rogue is very useful. Long Sword, Short Bow and Long Spear are all good (and common) weapon selections.

16 Skill Points is equivilent something close to 3 feats (wheather you count the 5 Skill Point Feat, or the horde of +2/+2 Feats). That's nothing to sneeze at.

Moreover you are slightly weaker and less able to make Fort and Will saves. And you'll always be one level behind on those cool Mnk special abilities.

Both of which I consider pretty minor. The Monk I'm suggesting didn't stat dump in either Wis or Con, so that every other level -1 should be a big issue.

As for your other Suggestion - Starting as Fighter 1, now that is also a thought.

You truely suffer in the Skill Point area, but get an extra Fighter Feat along with a WIDE range of weaponry. But really if you want to do that, starting as a Ranger is a much better deal.

 

[Technik4]

Add in damage reduction 10 and it's the difference between doing damage and being completely useless.

All this talk about damage reduction - you realize that relying on a strength monk to punch through DR is not really the best option (and to recap most of my former arguments - you will be doing an insect's worth of damage compared to the rest of the party). If you want to fight DR, you get Cold Iron Sai, Silver Shuriken, etc etc. Just like everyone else who wants to punch through DR...

 

[werk]

All this talk about damage reduction - you realize that relying on a strength monk to punch through DR is not really the best option (and to recap most of my former arguments - you will be doing an insect's worth of damage compared to the rest of the party). If you want to fight DR, you get Cold Iron Sai, Silver Shuriken, etc etc. Just like everyone else who wants to punch through DR...

...if you have them. When you don't, there is a clear advantage granted.

You keep talking about party tactics and all that as making your dex build more viable than we are appreciating. It seems like there are a lot of circumstances that need to line-up for your build, where the strength heavy monk build is more solid and simply better all around for combat style play. IMO of course.

Everyone has pet builds, but these two monks are clearly not equal to one another in combat.

 

[phindar]

I find when I can't beat DR, or its not really worth it to try, special attacks are the way to go. Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Grapple; if you can't wound a creature you can at least hobble it so the rest of the group can. Its not all about hit point damage.

 

[Technik4]

Everyone has pet builds, but these two monks are clearly not equal to one another in combat.

Sigh. You're absolutely right. The strength monk does more damage and hits more often while the Dex monk has more AC, stealth options, and a slightly better ranged attack bonus. In combat, the strength monk will be more likely to punch through DR he doesn't have the weapons to otherwise beat (although the damage will more than likely be negligible) and he has higher grapple and trip bonuses. The Dex monk will eventually have spring attack and a better AC and will probably rely more on a weapon with a magical property (+1d6 elemental damage) to defeat foes (which is money the strength monk could invest in a higher strength, or something).

You can't just look at the different builds and say 'This one is better' because D&D is a roleplaying game, not a tactical combat simulation. The best choice for a given player is the character they most wish to play.

 

[Nail]

The best choice for a given player is the character they most wish to play.

No one is arguing otherwise.

The thread started with an OP that's not played in 3.xe, and not played a Mnk. By recommending a Str Mnk, I'm NOT claiming it's the only option. I AM claiming he's got the best chance of contributing in combat, which I've OFTEN found to be a crucial factor in new players having fun.

 

[Nail]

You also get Trapfinding, access to non-monk skills, and an improved weapon selection, including a Reach Weapon.

You bet.

But you can't flurry with that reach weapon, nor can you use Weapon Finesse. ...And that -1 BAB hurts a bit. Still, I'm not saying a Rog 1/Mnk X is a terrible idea....just that it might not make up for the lost Mnk level. It definitely a Fun idea, though.

As for your other Suggestion - Starting as Fighter 1, now that is also a thought.

You truely suffer in the Skill Point area, but get an extra Fighter Feat along with a WIDE range of weaponry. But really if you want to do that, starting as a Ranger is a much better deal.

That Ftr bonus feat might be quite worthwhile, depending on the splatbooks available. But Rgr is a good idea too. I'm not convinced a Mnk is a good skill monkey, so I'm not sold that the Rgr skill points are crucial. YMMV.

Our group's Mnk went with the Warblade from ToB:Bo9S. He's currently Mnk 2/WB 4. It's been a reasonable build so far....we'll see how those higher level manuevers go as he progresses in Warblade. ...but that's a different thread.

 

[Pagan priest]

A Dex-based Commoner could singlehandedly fight and kill an ogre too.....

You are leaving out some important bits in your assertion. Let's see 'em.

Fair enough... I am assuming a MM standard ogre and a dex based 8th level monk (as per the earlier post talking about the giant with the ogre minions). With Weapon Finesse and flurry of blows, the monk is going to be attacking at +9, +9, +4 against the ogre's AC of 16. Without brining positional modifiers, buffs, magic or anything else into the mix, that gives the monk an average damage of about 10 points per round, the average ogre goes down in 3 rounds. The ogre has an average damage per round of about 10 (if the monk has a wisdom of 10, as well). The monk will average about 40 hit points, or 10 hit points remaining once the ogre is dead.

Now, to be fair, this is running an 8th level character against a 4 HD monster, but that was an increadibly wimpy character for 8th level. With a reasonalbe selection of feats and magic items, you could expect potentially to kill an ogre in just over one round, without taking any damage.