Monk and Feats - advice sought

[doghead]

I've taken over a Monk 2 from a missing player with the following

Abilities:
* Str 16, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8.
Feats:
* Dodge [Human bonus]
* Combat Expertise [L1]
* Improved Unarmed Strike [L1 monk bonus]
* Stunning Fist [L1 monk bonus]
* Combat Reflexes [L2 monk bonus]

But Combat Expertise has a prereq of Int 13. The GM may just let it stand as the character is already established, but then again, he may not.

Reworking the stats (it was a point buy) is one alternative. But maybe redoing the feats is better. I would like to keep him fairly handy in a fight. I've been on the recieving end of a monk with Spring Attack, and seen another monk combo with TWF at work. Both seem fairly handy. But chosing feats (all those combinations and progressions!) gives me a headache, so I though I would see if I could pick some brains.

I do like the idea of TWF, leading on to TWD. Nice and straight forward.

thotd

 

[DanMcS]

For a monk with a high strength, you can't beat Improved Grapple. I played a monk up to 17th level, and grappling and tripping ended up being his best tricks. Speaking of that, yeah, you've got a good strength, go with Improved Trip as your monk 6 feat. Grapple and Trip are both touch attacks, which is good for you, too.

Two-weapon fighting; meh. You do more damage with your fists. TWF gives another big penalty to-hit, when you're already down by -2 for flurrying and for having a 3/4 BAB. If you go up the full chain, you'll end up with a lot of attacks (+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 by 20th level, should be), but they'll all miss, and the one you hit with will be a kama doing a d6 damage. I wouldn't do it, that's just me. If you want a lot of attacks, flurry will do it, so you'd be at +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. Having your highest attack at +15 is better than three extra attacks at +13/+8/+3, in my opinion. It gets hard to hit stuff by high levels, as a monk.

Speaking of, I actually found weapon focus to be pretty handy, helps make up for some of the low BAB progression.

I liked Deflect Arrows, but it is only useful once in a while, Combat Reflexes is more often. Still, consider picking it up. It's very satisfying to say "nope" in response to the DM's "the orc shoots at you, he hits"

 

[Darkness]

* Combat Reflexes [L2 monk bonus]

But Combat Expertise has a prereq of Int 13. The GM may just let it stand as the character is already established, but then again, he may not.

You don't need to fulfill the prerequisites of the Monk bonus feats.

 

[Shadeus]

You don't need to fulfill the prerequisites of the Monk bonus feats.

Two different feats. Combat Expertise isn't a monk feat.

That said, I would dump Combat expertise. There are too many other good feats to take in its place. I would consider mobility leading to spring attack at level 6. If you are allowed to use Complete warrior, they have some good feats for monks too. Pain Touch essentially makes stunning fist last an extra round. There's also some feats in there that allow you to use your stunning fist attacks to do other things (like apply a Str penalty to your foe). I also like Defensive Throw which allows you to make an AoO trip attack on any foe that misses you with an attack.

Weapon focus is a good one. At higher levels, monks have a lot of attacks, but a lousy chance to hit (unless you can get a hold of an amulet of mighty fists).

Also Expert Tactician (from S&S) works well with stunning fist. If you stun someone, you can get an extra attack.

 

[Darkness]

Two different feats. Combat Expertise isn't a monk feat.

Heh, read it as Reflexes for some reason... Weird.

I agree with dropping it.

 

[doghead]

Thanks for the input.

<snip>Sorted while I typed away.</snip>

For a monk with a high strength, you can't beat Improved Grapple. I played a monk up to 17th level, and grappling and tripping ended up being his best tricks. Speaking of that, yeah, you've got a good strength, go with Improved Trip as your monk 6 feat. Grapple and Trip are both touch attacks, which is good for you, too.

Just reread the rules. I had thought that TWF was usable as a Standard action attack. I was thinking it would be useful when not able to make a flurry attack (full around action).

Grapple and Trip are nice. And I hadn't thought about the Touch Attack aspect. Trip in particular with the follow up attack if you are successful. Definately my preference for the L6 monk bonus. To get grapple as well, I would have to keep or get Combat Expertise, as he has taken Stunning Fist for his L1 monk bonus. Is it possible to Stun then follow up with a Trip or Grapple attack when using Flurry of Blows? I can't find anything that prohibits it.

 

[DanMcS]

Grapple and Trip are nice. And I hadn't thought about the Touch Attack aspect. Trip in particular with the follow up attack if you are successful. Definately my preference for the L6 monk bonus. To get grapple as well, I would have to keep or get Combat Expertise, as he has taken Stunning Fist for his L1 monk bonus. Is it possible to Stun then follow up with a Trip or Grapple attack when using Flurry of Blows? I can't find anything that prohibits it.

Improved Grapple has Improved Unarmed Strike as its prereq, not combat expertise, so you're fine.

Yes, you can stun first then trip or grapple. In fact, if you do so, you could stun with your first attack, disarm with your second since it's still at your top BAB due to flurrying; they can't AoO because they're stunned. Trip or grapple with a subsequent attack, because they're touch attacks and your lower attack bonus won't hurt you. The average wizard's touch AC after being stunned is around a 8. Stun wizards due to their low fort save. Though by the time you reach mid levels, you'll have so many stun attempts and can only use one per round you might as well try it every round. Somebody will roll a 1.

You'll want to grapple wizards and clerics more than fighters- their lower BAB and strength lets you beat them more on grapple checks, and while pinned they can't cast spells with a somatic component at all, and have a hard time casting spells with material components.

Improved trip is fun with a reach tripping weapon and combat reflexes. It doesn't matter if you're not proficient with the weapon, because it's a touch attack, and your free followup attack will get a bonus because they're prone. Spiked chains or guisarmes are your friend.

 

[kjenks]

I'd change Combat Expertise into Martial Weapon Proficiency: Guisarme. A guisarme is a very flexible weapon, especially for a monk. You can trip, disarm and sunder from 10 ft. away, all without getting an AoO from creatures without reach. Since you're using it two-handed, you get +4 on disarm and sunder attacks (see FAQ re: two-handed disarm). Since you can't use a shield anyway, you might as well use a two-handed weapon, where you get 1.5x Str bonus on damage. If someone closes within your "reach donut" you can still use your unarmed strike. At level 2-15, a guisarme will do more damage than your fists vs. almost all opponents. You can get two different guisarmes, too, masterwork cold iron and masterwork alchemical silver, along with a 25 gp scroll of Magic Weapon to loan to your spellcasting buddies. This will help you bypass damage reduction (DR) much more effectively than you can do with your fists.

Or maybe I'd change Combat Expertise into Mobility. Not that I think Mobility is all that great, but Spring Attack is pretty good to pick up later, and Mobility is a pre-req.

A really good combo is Spring Attack and Hold the Line (from Complete Warrior, prereq: Combat Reflexes). With your monk fast movement, you Spring Attack an opponent then move back to where he must charge you to attack you. When he charges you, you use your Hold the Line feat and trip him with your AoO.

This works best with a reach weapon that can trip, like guisarme, ranseur or spiked chain.

 

[mvincent]

Two-weapon fighting; meh. You do more damage with your fists.

A monk can TWF with his unarmed attacks, so it can be pretty useful (especially with “weapon focus: unarmed attack” and/or a permanent “magic fang” spell cast on you).

Another option is to gain a weapon proficiency with a reach weapon (especially spiked chain). Since a monk can use his unarmed attacks while his hands are full, a reach weapon an excellent use of those free hands because it gives him some free AoO’s (even without taking weapon proficiency). This also synergizes well with improved trip (or even improved disarm) at lvl. 6.

Spring attack is ok, but it has some prerequisites. It too synergizes best with a reach weapon though.

 

[doghead]

I've never taken a polearm fighter. I wondered how you would deal with opponents closing to within your reach. The monk has that sorted. Otherwise, I suppose you just take a 5 ft step back and strike, then your opponent takes another one forwards next round and strikes back. And so on. Perhaps I'll give the Guisarme a try if the DM OK's the changes.

Thanks everyone for the input.

thotd